What defines 3rd wave of emo as a genre?

[My name is Fez]

I was talking to my girlfriend's brother about 30 Seconds to Mars, and, well, this conversation took place...

Me: It irritates me that they call themselves prog.
Him: They do? Wow. That's lame, they're emo!
Me: ...No they're not.
Him: Dude, they totally are! They write all kinds of depressing stuff.
Me: And? Bands from every genre do that, that doesn't mean anything.
Him: Yeah, but it's ALL they do.
Me: And? Lyrics don't define a genre. Sound, technique, and song structure among other factors is what shapes a genre.
Him: Dude, what if Led Zeppelin wrote a song about cutting their wrists?
Me: If "Black Dog" was about cutting your wrists, that would be a rock song about cutting your wrists.
Him: I don't know, man.
Me: But I do. Emo is NOT defined by lyrics at all. People lump in bands like 30StM and Coheed with emo simply because a lot of scene assholse like it, and no one knows what "emo" actually is.

He stopped arguing with me and I didn't want to pound the idea into his head.

Now, I know that he's obviously wrong, that's not really what my question is.

I have a faint idea as to what 3rd wave of emo entails and how it sounds, but I'm a lot better at picking out what ISN'T emo versus what is.

So what precisely is it that defines emo as a genre so I can actually (hopefully) try to explain to my girlfriend's brother why 30 Seconds to Mars isn't emo just because Rock Band put them into that genre?

[Nuff_Said]

i was never even aware there was a 2nd wave of emo music.

[My name is Fez]

i was never even aware there was a 2nd wave of emo music.

I'm pretty sure it's 3rd wave.

I never really followed it. If I'm wrong, replace "3rd wave" with "most recent wave"

[Onslaught_fei]

I never argue with anyone irl about musical genres beyond my close circle of friends. I just feel like an ass when doing so. As for what defines "emo" as a genre, it depends to who you talk to. The UK see emo as MCR, FOB, etc... because that is what was imported to them (They never got the Virigina based local scene stuff). Harmonix has genre-cast the Mars songs into "emo" and much of the mainstream media and populace does as well. Its like when hair metal took over the limelight and metalheads collecting groaned. I honestly have no idea on 3rd wave, 2nd wave, or 1st wave emo though. To be honest, everyone I know calls Mars an emo band, but then everyone I hang around are barbarians ;p

Thats all I got on the subject ;\

[Onslaught_fei]

I also remember when the WOW forum boards attacked http://www.emo-corner.com/. Pretty insightful as almost everyone that posts didnt know who the hell Fugazi was. Just reading through this thread: http://www.emo-corner.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=7 is pretty entertaining.

[afterstasis]

i'd say bands like envy, gauge means nothing, funeral diner, raein, and the pine are good examples of 3rd wave emo in that they actually sound like emo and have a clue in regards to emo's roots.

[hmxhenry]

I'm not a big fan of creating endless sub genres and ultra specific little compartments that music HAS to live in, but in the interest of addressing the OP's question I'll take a crack at it. Here's my take on the evolution of emo, based on my familiarity with the genre over the last 12 years or so.

First wave bands almost universally cringed at the emo label. Most bands identified themselves as hardcore bands or emotional hardcore bands. Much of the first wave of emo bands came out of DC, born from the break up of hardcore punk bands like Minor Threat, Faith, Government Issue. Kids involved in the DC scene had grown disgusted with the violence, cliques, and macho posturing in the hardcore scene and endeavored to form new bands that retained the intensity and urgency of hardcore punk while focusing on more introspective and artistic content.

Bands like Rites of Spring, Embrace, Fugazi, Dag Nasty, and Nation of Ulysses set the standard for raw and intense hardcore that was unafraid to sing about things such as *gasp* their emotions.

As the above bands gained prominence in underground music circles, emo, as all genres of music tend to do, began to splinter. You can start to see elements of emotional hardcore mix with abrasive vocals and music played at blistering speeds as the first screamo bands begin to form (Swing Kids, Antioch Arrow, Heroin, Portraits of Past, etc). Emo began to blend with pop punk and it developed into many of the bands recognized as second wave emo bands. Groups like The Get Up Kids, Saves the Day, Braid, Sunny Day Real Estate, and Jimmy Eat World approached emo from a more melodic angle. Many of these bands feature members of former hardcore bands, and there is still a definite sense of the hardcore punk energy, but the bouncy bass lines, poppy sing along choruses, and tongue in cheek fun added a great deal of levity to the emo scene.

Much of what is labeled as emo now bears little resemblance to first wave emo, and seems to be judged on style more than substance. Many second wave emo bands evolved into much poppier outfits, or began to dabble with larger musical experimentation. "Emo" bands now run the gamut from folk and country influenced acts like Bright Eyes and other Saddle Creek Records bands, to more polished pop or even prog acts like 30 Seconds to Mars or Coheed and Cambria. The difficulty in labeling bands now is that they all have such vastly different influences that two "emo" bands, identified as such by wither fashion stereotypes or a penchant for open and emotional lyrics, may actually sound nothing alike!

It's hard to say what defines the third wave of emo bands. Just because you have emotional lyrics, that doesn't mean you're an emo band. Guy, from Rites of Spring and Fugazi, recently spoke out against the emo label (a genre he's largely credited as founding) stating: "The reason I think [the name emo is] so stupid is that—what, like the Bad Brains weren't emotional? What—they were robots or something? It just doesn't make any sense to me."

There are still introspective hardcore punk acts out there, and there are still screamo bands shooting for maximum catharsis through their music, and there's still plenty of pop bands playing heartfelt songs... but it seems to me like most third wave or current emo bands are defined more by the clothes they wear, the name of their band, or a perceived sense of depression based on the fact that they wrote one song about breaking up with a girl.

[My name is Fez]

I'm not a big fan of creating endless sub genres and ultra specific little compartments that music HAS to live in, but in the interest of addressing the OP's question I'll take a crack at it. Here's my take on the evolution of emo, based on my familiarity with the genre over the last 12 years or so.

First wave bands almost universally cringed at the emo label. Most bands identified themselves as hardcore bands or emotional hardcore bands. Much of the first wave of emo bands came out of DC, born from the break up of hardcore punk bands like Minor Threat, Faith, Government Issue. Kids involved in the DC scene had grown disgusted with the violence, cliques, and macho posturing in the hardcore scene and endeavored to form new bands that retained the intensity and urgency of hardcore punk while focusing on more introspective and artistic content.

Bands like Rites of Spring, Embrace, Fugazi, Dag Nasty, and Nation of Ulysses set the standard for raw and intense hardcore that was unafraid to sing about things such as *gasp* their emotions.

As the above bands gained prominence in underground music circles, emo, as all genres of music tend to do, began to splinter. You can start to see elements of emotional hardcore mix with abrasive vocals and music played at blistering speeds as the first screamo bands begin to form (Swing Kids, Antioch Arrow, Heroin, Portraits of Past, etc). Emo began to blend with pop punk and it developed into many of the bands recognized as second wave emo bands. Groups like The Get Up Kids, Saves the Day, Braid, Sunny Day Real Estate, and Jimmy Eat World approached emo from a more melodic angle. Many of these bands feature members of former hardcore bands, and there is still a definite sense of the hardcore punk energy, but the bouncy bass lines, poppy sing along choruses, and tongue in cheek fun added a great deal of levity to the emo scene.

Much of what is labeled as emo now bears little resemblance to first wave emo, and seems to be judged on style more than substance. Many second wave emo bands evolved into much poppier outfits, or began to dabble with larger musical experimentation. "Emo" bands now run the gamut from folk and country influenced acts like Bright Eyes and other Saddle Creek Records bands, to more polished pop or even prog acts like 30 Seconds to Mars or Coheed and Cambria. The difficulty in labeling bands now is that they all have such vastly different influences that two "emo" bands, identified as such by wither fashion stereotypes or a penchant for open and emotional lyrics, may actually sound nothing alike!

It's hard to say what defines the third wave of emo bands. Just because you have emotional lyrics, that doesn't mean you're an emo band. Guy, from Rites of Spring and Fugazi, recently spoke out against the emo label (a genre he's largely credited as founding) stating: "The reason I think [the name emo is] so stupid is that—what, like the Bad Brains weren't emotional? What—they were robots or something? It just doesn't make any sense to me."

There are still introspective hardcore punk acts out there, and there are still screamo bands shooting for maximum catharsis through their music, and there's still plenty of pop bands playing heartfelt songs... but it seems to me like most third wave or current emo bands are defined more by the clothes they wear, the name of their band, or a perceived sense of depression based on the fact that they wrote one song about breaking up with a girl.

Quite informative, sir. Thank you very much. That's what I was trying to differentiate, actual emo vs. bands who just wear eyeliner and write break-up songs. That was quite helpful.

[elfreako]

emo bands are defined more by the clothes they wear, the name of their band, or a perceived sense of depression based on the fact that they wrote one song about breaking up with a girl.

That says it all. There is no third wave.

[Gowienczyk]

That says it all. There is no third wave.

Tell that to La Quiete, ...Who Calls So Loud, Hot Cross, etc.

See; Afterstatis' post for my opinion for the most part on "third wave emo".