Two guitars, no bass.

[Ultrace]

Well, I think we'd actually have to hear the songs to see if the second guitar is "bass-y" enough to pass peer review. I was just saying that it could work in theory.

That's exactly what I'm saying -- if the guitar sound is modified enough to pass for something like bass, then it will probably make it through; the majority of reviewers would accept the sound as a bass. This is the theory. But if the sound were distinctly guitar, there would be an issue.

[Ultrace]

Thanks for the responses! I'm not sure if it would work yet either, but I did think it was odd that the first two people to comment said it absolutely wouldn't be allowed. I thought it would be like the other people said, and if there was no bass at all, and the other guitar was bassy enough then it might work.

Admittedly, your original post said nothing about making the second guitar sound like a bass; on reading it, I would have assumed you were just talking about slotting a plain old guitar in there, as I believe they did.

[Markleford]

Can we say, in black and white, what's not allowed by the rules? No, but we can say what won't pass review if it's put out there, and a second straight-up guitar charted on bass won't.

Well, either it *will* be in the rules, or *anyone* will have the opportunity to vote how they'd like in the peer review. While you might fail it, I think I would pass it, because this example passes the "tasteful" guideline, in my eyes.

Given that HMX has charted harmonica and turntable to guitar in the past, I'm not getting the feeling that they'll be too uptight about it.

However, until HMX themselves says that something *won't* be allowed, I don't think that anyone else can say "no" for sure. The above quote from HMXEnosity leads me to believe that common sense should win out, and that if there was no original bass part then your options should be open.

We'll just have to wait and see if it's clarified.

- m

[TheNobleRobot]

This is one area where the failing is in the design of the game. I remember that Guitar Hero III's two-player mode would have some songs be "Guitar/Bass" and some songs be "LeadGuitar/RhythmGuitar," which makes sense depending on the content in the song. If the rhythm guitar is more fun to play than the bass, what's wrong with excluding the bass from the gameplay, even if it is in the song?

I would like for future RB games to allow for this, and even allow for 5-part songs. Most singers in real rock bands also play guitar, so I think it's about time that RB caught up and added a rhythm guitar lane. I was really disappointed when Beatles:RB didn't have this, seeing as how they did add 3-part harmonies to make it more realistic (kudos, of course). Of course, I can see how this would be difficult to do (it would require changing the midi spec, after all, and raise backward compatibility issues), and as GH5 shows, having 4 note highways on the screen can indeed get crowded (although keeping it optional is key).

However, at the very least, in the here and now, there should be no insistence that the second guitar controller must be a bass or "bass-y" track.

For RBN, I think that the standards for this kind of thing are going to be set by the "peers" in peer review, and that's us. So I say chart it for Lead/Rhythm and don't look back.

[MarsPhoenix]

4 lanes on the bottom screen would get rather crowded, and inclusion of a Rhythm section means that the Lead guitar would not have any of that section in it, which would make Lead a rather boring part in many songs. Good idea on paper, but there's too many problems with it.

[Ultrace]

Well, either it *will* be in the rules, or *anyone* will have the opportunity to vote how they'd like in the peer review. While you might fail it, I think I would pass it, because this example passes the "tasteful" guideline, in my eyes.

So you would give a pass to a song where a guitar was clearly put in as a bass? I believe that's a wrong move and I hope you're in the vast minority for it.

What Harmonix has done in the past with charting things to guitar was based on the additional instrument being the driving sound in the song in the absence of guitar; they charted the strings to bass in a Pearl Jam song because the string was playing the part of bass there. In all cases that I'm aware of, what was being charted effectively took the place of the instrument it was put into. That's the difference between what Harmonix has done and what's proposed here.

I hope that either documentation or the will of the majority will give a little clearer definition than HMXEnosity provided. Charting rhythm or backup guitar to bass (as opposed to charting farts, or the death screams of kittens or something) might be tasteful; that doesn't mean it should be done.

[Markleford]

So you would give a pass to a song where a guitar was clearly put in as a bass? I believe that's a wrong move and I hope you're in the vast minority for it.

Well, if there were no bass *at all* in the song at all, I would certainly approve that decision.

I play real bass too, so I certainly would *never* say that a rhythm guitar part would be preferable if there's a bass available. However, as a *gamer* I'd rather play a rhythm guitar part than sit out of the song entirely as the bassist. (...let alone the fact that HMX currently forces you to exit Quickplay mode and log out the bassist for the track to be available in the setlist!)

they charted the strings to bass in a Pearl Jam song because the string was playing the part of bass there. In all cases that I'm aware of, what was being charted effectively took the place of the instrument it was put into.

Yes, also similarly in Tap's "Saucy Jack", where they charted tuba. Certainly, where there's "low frequency content" to be leveraged, I certainly see it as preferable.

However, for my particular stake in this, I'm charting a prog song where both the bassist and guitarist switch to acoustic guitars for a duet in the middle section of the song. At the very least, I'm glad that the bass will still be playing bass for the rock-out sections, but I'd *like* the bass-gamer to be able to play the second guitar part, as the *real* bass player actually does, rather than sitting out and twiddling thumbs.

Think about Geddy Lee playing his double-neck Rickenbacker bass/guitar in the classic Rush concert video "Exit Stage Left". It would still be still the same player, but part of the song would be on guitar. (You can even buy a double-neck in the RB2 Rock Shop. )

That's the difference between what Harmonix has done and what's proposed here.

However, we also have to give some leeway for the fact that the Rock Band landscape is changing, particularly in incorporating a much wider array of genres. What "Harmonix has done" in the past has *also* been to only use songs with 4 traditional rock instruments, but that has also fallen by the wayside over time, and for RBN they have *explicitly* stated that you only need *one* instrument to publish a track.

Mind, *I* certainly won't buy a track with one instrument. Who would? To me, RB is about having fun with as many people as possible. If that means supporting an alternate part for a non-existent bass line? I'm totally there.

Besides, if people despise playing other instruments under the role of "bass player", they can always sit out. Nobody is forcing them to play an alternate part.

I hope that either documentation or the will of the majority will give a little clearer definition than HMXEnosity provided.

Yes, it definitely calls out for clarification. But that's my major beef here: I don't think people can give a definitive "not allowed" answer until it's been clarified. It is simply misleading to claim that anyone knows for sure, given the above quote from a HMX representative.

All we can say is whether or not *we*, as peer reviewers, would allow it. And even in that case, we have no idea how these "votes" are weighted, or whether an "appeal" process can allow a track to pass by a few negative votes.

- m

[Jorm]

I'm with Markleford on this. I intend to be a part of the review process, and focus on reviewing bass as that's my primary instrument.

We know that HMX has been creative in the past when the situation called for it. I don't think playing rhythm guitar as the bass part in the complete absence of any other more appropriate instrument track, lacks 'taste'.

Perhaps things do need to be further clarified by HMX.

My order of precedence would be:
If an actual bass guitar is present, it should be charted.

If no bass guitar present, chart the instrument that most closely serves the function of a bass in the song- be it tuba or organ or whatever. Do not slap in the rhythm guitar here if there's another more appropriate instrument available.

If there's no instrument serving the function of the bass, chart a second guitar (if present) to bass. Give bass something, rather than nothing.

I'd rather more parts playable than adhering to a purist's position. Non-bass to bass should be a rare occurrence, but if the situation calls for it, why not?

Now, if HMX comes out and expressly states that this is a no go, then of course what they say goes.

[DanB91]

Thanks for the responses! I'm not sure if it would work yet either, but I did think it was odd that the first two people to comment said it absolutely wouldn't be allowed. I thought it would be like the other people said, and if there was no bass at all, and the other guitar was bassy enough then it might work.

Sorry about not giving reason. I cannot find the thread now, but I read that bass must cannot be a track to "catch" any other instrument, which I would say is what you are asking to do.

[TheNobleRobot]

4 lanes on the bottom screen would get rather crowded, and inclusion of a Rhythm section means that the Lead guitar would not have any of that section in it, which would make Lead a rather boring part in many songs. Good idea on paper, but there's too many problems with it.

I think you misunderstand my position. I'm trying to say that the game should be flexible to the needs of a song. You seem to be insisting that there must be *one* arrangement for all songs. I don't disagree that some songs would have a boring lead part if the rhythm part were charted to a second lane, but I'm not saying that you *have* to have a second guitar lane for every song. I'm just saying that a future RB game can easily allow more than one configuration, especially if Harmonix is serious about expanding the DLC library, and particularly to accommodate the future potential of RBN.

I don't see what's wrong with Rock Band 3 allowing 2 guitar parts and a bass part if they're all interesting (Smashing Pumpkins, anyone). If the player has an HDTV, why *not* allow 4 lanes? Now, if they're playing on a 16" SDTV, 3 lanes is already too many, and no one is forcing anyone to with that many players.

And if a song has two guitars but they're not interesting enough to be separate lanes, then we can still just author one "combined" guitar lane as always (hell, why not allow the game to have 3 guitar tracks, lead, rhythm, and combined, so it can be played with either one or two guitar players?).

But... assuming that the game spec never changes, and sticking to the RBN debate, I still don't see what's wrong with authoring the 2 "most interesting parts" to the 2 guitar controllers, depending what's actually in the song. The most interesting part should be charted to guitar and the second most interesting part should be charted to bass. Exceptions can be made at the author's discretion to preserve verisimilitude, so a super-interesting piano part won't be charted to guitar if there is a nearly as interesting guitar part in the song, of course. Likewise, the bass should be authored to bass as long as it's interesting enough, but I know I have written a few songs where the bass part is repetitive and could *actually* be played with fewer than 5 notes, so why not author the more interesting rhythm guitar part to that controller?

The only real problem is that the second guitar controller is called "bass" by the game, but I don't get why we can't just ignore that, as long as it serves the gameplay, just as Harmonix has done on occasion.

Ideally, a song should chart bass to bass and all the guitars to guitar, that should remain the standard, and no one is arguing with that, but for RBN, there are going to be literally *hundreds* of songs where adhering slavishly to that standard will make a less enjoyable gameplay experience. So why do it?