RB3 Petition: Remove/Increase Character Limit

[blckshp]

So it was a necessary concession to drop the user-created characters to ten in order to make room for other features, but having nineteen session musicians who can't be removed, and who presumably take up the same amount of memory as user-created characters, is perfectly fine. They couldn't have taken out any of those guys to give the player more room. Not even one.

This is why some of the people posting in this thread have made the modified suggestion of allowing players to delete (some of) the session musicians and only then make more characters. There would be 29 or fewer characters either way; the game wouldn't need to store a total of 43 or 50 or an unlimited number of characters. For all we know this might be just as impossible to implement, but if limited memory space really is the main issue, and I can believe that it is, it's still a better idea than simply raising the character limit.

You're making a fairly big assumption in your own post, blckshp, so perhaps you shouldn't be so quick to laugh at other people's assumptions. I believe you about Harmonix needing to remove some less important things to save space for more important features like the Pro instruments, and I do agree that it's unwise to speculate with too much conviction about how easy it would be to change something or other in the code (after all, nobody here has seen the code for RB3). But then you go straight to saying that it's therefore stupid to make any sort of complaint about the features that were taken out of RB3. This seems to be founded on the assumption that RB3 is as good as it can possibly get within the constraints of the medium. I don't think that's true; the very fact that the game shipped with at least one serious bug (I'm referring to the Squier star bug, not anything to do with the character limit) proves that Harmonix isn't perfect or infallible.

They made a very good game, and it's better than the fans with various minor complaints about it could have done, so that's not a slight against them. I'm just saying that they're not perfect and neither is RB3. There are things that could be better.

I agree and concede you the fact that the game is not perfect and none of us are, but take a look at some of the people who have posted in this thread alone, who go into every friggin post complaining about the graphics, the duel, the tour mode, the lack of attitudes, the lack of clothes, people from Harmonix should be laid off if they were the ones who made any of those decisions. And yes, there is one person in this thread who has stated all of the above and complains continuously in any thread that they get a chance to. And then all the little sheeple follow suit. There may be a reason why you can't delete pre-made characters, such as they have pointers assigned to them with certain checks to maintain file and or database validity and consistency. It may also be that if you delete one of those and introduce a new character with different characteristics will cause the possibility of a file to corrupt because a table in the DB was made to only allow a certain number of variables for characters and customizations. Maybe it was the optimal number they could give us because that was the biggest they could make the table in the database to keep the database size small enough for the consoles to manage. Maybe it was the optimal configuration for the graphics to be able to handle. Maybe that's the reason why some people's bands are all funked up and some aren't. The customization is pushing the graphics engine to the point where it's hitting it's limit, and the people who don't customize more than their single character hardly notice anything, because the graphic engine isn't straining so much for them.

There are people who post all over this place who swear that everything they think is wrong with this game is a deliberate Harmonix jab at them. That they did it just to spite everyone.

Constructive criticism is cool. I'm all for it. Complaining, fine, people need to vent. People who consistently rip on Harmonix, People who tell them they can change this or that because it was that way before, and people who just will not shut up because they think the more they have their name displayed in the forum that someone will eventually give them their way.................well, they just really need to get real and lighten up or just go away.

[blckshp]

*looks at own sig* I should fix that to say thanks for RB3.

I am not asking for anything to be changed if it can't. I am asking for the next game to fix the save file issue. I don't care if it takes up more space, I want to be able to make avatar's that are my own, to share with friends and family, and not be limited. Look at Fordza Motorsports 3. It had the ability to upload car skins to the community , unlimited races saved, and allowed itself to have as much room it could have for the game itself by saving the game on the hard drive.

I do not know if it be done for this series, but anything that allows for more customization makes people more invested into the product.

Even if animations have to be reworked a little, the gameplay is key. All I am asking, and I am not the only one, is to in the future not be limited in the number of customizable toons I can make. Now, if they have to, then please make it at least as many as the pre-made toons that most never select unless they do not want personal band mates.

I know it may not be able to be fixed in a patch. If so, then I would love to. Even if they charge a dollar for a DL "feature" to add all the toons you want. I have spent over 2k on songs, equipment and batteries. I believe I am entitled to an opinion on an issue that made me so annoyed when getting the game home.

You're comparing a racing car simulation to RB. Yes, they are both games, but the engine for Fordza isn't nearly as complex as the one for Rock Band. Also, look at the cars, they pretty much are a static frame that you are simply putting a skin over. You can't totally redesign the car, with the same latitude of freedom as you can your characters in RB. And they do give you that amount of freedom for the most part. You can add tattoos, which amounts to the same thing in Forzda. You are simply tattooing the automobile. And as for unlimited saves. Go look on your hard drive how many files it put there. It didn't save it all in one file. In order for Rock Band to work correctly, everything has to be in one file. Maybe in the future, what they could do, is create a character file, it can have it's limits, but allow the players to swap the files out. So you could have a reggae band, a rock band, a punk band, or whatever munge you wanted.

Every game has to operate within limits. Even for save files. They have to maintain a structure. They simply cannot be made limitless. That file has to load back into the engine and run within the game, which has to run within the power of the console.

I feel your pain, I've spent quite a bit of money on Rock Band also, but that spending money, was for things that went with the game. As a customer, yes we have a voice. But that voice is not the one that defines what the consoles are capable of. In the end, to give you a game at all, they have to make it run on the console.

Post your opinion, fine. But some people go way past posting opinions. Go back and read through this thread where, instead of offering suggestions, people simply say, well, Harmonix can do this if they really wanted to. It's not that difficult. That's not stating an opinion. It sure as hell isn't constructive criticism. Read the post as if you were Harmonix and see just how you would react......

[TheHundredDollarHeadache]

There may be a reason why you can't delete pre-made characters

Simplest reason: They're on the disc. Same reason you can't delete disc songs.

[Vercetti-PD]

I hate it. Also the low custom art thing is way too low. You can only make 19(I think) pieces of art and with an increase in characters this should also be increased. I personally don't mind the character thing because I like having seperate bands which I have used 4 accounts for now. But the art slots really tick me off. And I can understand why 10 is low, and I agree. And when(/if) RB 4 comes around they shouldn't go steps backwards. Give us something more like RB2 instead, I had so much more fun with that game. Now it's just pick a song play it. The choices you could make actually made it feel like the game was more interactive. I just wish they make it a little more complex next time around.

signed

[Obi_Wan_Kenoli]

I hate it. Also the low custom art thing is way too low. You can only make 19(I think) pieces of art and with an increase in characters this should also be increased. I personally don't mind the character thing because I like having seperate bands which I have used 4 accounts for now. But the art slots really tick me off. And I can understand why 10 is low, and I agree. And when(/if) RB 4 comes around they shouldn't go steps backwards. Give us something more like RB2 instead, I had so much more fun with that game. Now it's just pick a song play it. The choices you could make actually made it feel like the game was more interactive. I just wish they make it a little more complex next time around.

signed

Yeah, it's funny how that works. Design decisions made that would at first seem that a goal was to expand on customization, but then in the same breath, decisions made that both severely gimp the already established level of customization coming in and leave the expansions now wading in this now shallower pool for the creative people you implement these systems to cater to.

As far as the character limit I can tell you it was most likely because it wasn't thought through very well more than any mechanical limitation. 4 characters are loaded into the game at anytime regardless, whether you made one, two, three, or zero characters.

There will be four characters on stage, or in the case of RB3 four characters on the loading screen, practice space, whatever, but what this deals with is the available info for the game to use to be able to put those particular characters. Any character is just a set of data on how to "create" that character anytime it's loaded up using the assets in game (clothing parts and colors, body models, facial parts, slider values). That info "about" the character is less data computer-wise than the various on disk assets the game uses to construct any character in the game.

To draw a parallel, the current situation is like having a tub of Lego blocks, and a sheet of paper to record different Lego designs you can make out of those blocks. Now the tub of blocks takes up more space on your workbench then the sheet of paper with the designs. But lets say you need to make space on that workbench for something else. If space taken up on your desk is an issue, logic would dictate that you get a smaller tub of blocks, not use an index card that smaller than an already small sheet of paper.

What actually appears to have happened was that due to time constraints, or assumptions, the tub of legos shrunk, and as a byproduct they probably figured you'd only need an index card now. Looking back at RB2 purely on the side of animations on disk, you have 4 attitudes, across 4 stand-in slots, across 2 genders. Now the guitar and bass animations carry over, so you still have 4 attitudes across two instruments, but one set of animations for vocals, drums, and the new keys. And of course 2 genders. So you get to add a new stand-in slot AND shrink the amount of animations you have to do for all new models by 31%! Brutally efficient. But sometimes brutal efficiency isn't so great for aesthetic things. Mona Lisa with 31% less paint gets restored. I'd hate for Mozart to try to figure out how to get 31% less notes in his compositions so he can get them out faster.

Honestly, the character limit just seems like a late decision in a long line of previous decisions that met with some criticism in hindsight. When there is one band to a profile, and a band has 4 members, 10 is a large number. And if this game didn't come after a game that allowed 12 bands and what, 24 characters per profile, it wouldn't seem so small.

It was a big assumption thinking people wouldn't notice or even have some issue. Hopefully if there's a new game they can loosen up some of these more arbitrary restraints that seem more like design miscues than anything. Most assume that they'll have at least the same options moving forward with a series, so it shouldn't be surprising when they notice "less" when it appears. "Oh wow, I can make 10 characters now! Huh?" And when a workaround is to make characters on a new profile, and subsequently unlock things again in a new revamped unlock system that was....supposed to stop you from having to unlock things again... well even the workaround is a bit misconceived.

[TheHundredDollarHeadache]

What actually appears to have happened was that due to time constraints, or assumptions, the tub of legos shrunk, and as a byproduct they probably figured you'd only need an index card now. Looking back at RB2 purely on the side of animations on disk, you have 4 attitudes, across 4 stand-in slots, across 2 genders. Now the guitar and bass animations carry over, so you still have 4 attitudes across two instruments, but one set of animations for vocals, drums, and the new keys. And of course 2 genders. So you get to add a new stand-in slot AND shrink the amount of animations you have to do for all new models by 31%! Brutally efficient. But sometimes brutal efficiency isn't so great for aesthetic things. Mona Lisa with 31% less paint gets restored. I'd hate for Mozart to try to figure out how to get 31% less notes in his compositions so he can get them out faster.

I thought it went like this:

RB2: 4 attitudes (rock/metal/goth/punk), 4 instruments = 16 sets of animations per gender
RB3: 2 attitudes (generic-rock/metal), 5 instruments = 10 sets of animations per gender (3 new - generic-rock vocals, both attitudes of keys)

37.5% reduction in animations.

Rock Band 3 seems to be the epitome of efficiency. Everything's streamlined so that they can get you to the gameplay in less time. To be fair, some of these things (the overshell) work beautifully.

But what would have been more efficient in the first place is keeping the old bodies, adding a bunch of fat bodies that would work with RB2 animations, sprucing them up a little, and recycling all of the animations for the old instruments, only making new animations for keys and their interactions with the rest of the band.

And when a workaround is to make characters on a new profile, and subsequently unlock things again in a new revamped unlock system that was....supposed to stop you from having to unlock things again... well even the workaround is a bit misconceived.

Sadly, it seems to be the official workaround, mentioned in the "questions answered by HMX" thread.

On top of unlocks not spilling over, you can't mix stand-ins from one profile with stand-ins on the other.

[Obi_Wan_Kenoli]

Sadly, it seems to be the official workaround, mentioned in the "questions answered by HMX" thread.

On top of unlocks not spilling over, you can't mix stand-ins from one profile with stand-ins on the other.

I never tried it myself, I saw the workaround and pretty much said "Well that's an answer." Didn't know about the lack of intermingling.

It is a workaround, just only really useful if you're playing with others. When you play together locally stand-ins are never an issue. If you maxed out at 10, Aunt Sally comes over and wants to make someone, she can always make her avatar on another profile, an added headache, but doable.

Outside of that context though it's not terribly useful as you point out, you can have unlimited groups of 10, but they're independent sets pretty much.

[Sunsetguy]

It would be nice to see it upgraded but I think they have some other bugs to fix first, and I would rather they focus on the bugs first. Shoot I haven't been disappointed with RB3 at all, sure a few things would be nice to have fixed like the XMB crash, or upgraded like character making, Mostly because I have like at least 15 friends I play RB with in real life, and my set is the main set for everyone to use...

[mayhem117]

Signed!

[Bulzeeb]

/signed

I'm all for being able to delete RB3 computers for more slots since IMO, most of the presets are just awful. I'd remake CPU's from RB2 and RB1 in their place (Sir Thomas, COME BACK TO US!)