2011(and beyond!) MLB thread.

[killer_roach]

Terrible metric for evaluating hitters. You mentioned above that stolen bases are only of value if someone else drives him in, but apparently you expect Trout to rack up RBI's without help? (Else why does he "need" more of them?)

Stolen bases start runs, RBI's finish them.

All things considered, I'll take the finisher every time.

And yes, I would say Cabrera is likely 4 wins better offensively, with Trout 2 wins better defensively.

[Dante1847]

Wins are a stat that awards a pitcher for something that AT LEAST 8 other players contribute to. Ignore them.

RBIs are a stat that awards a hitter for having a manager put him in a place in a lineup that will at least give them 4 PAs a game and, by your own admission just now, going to the plate during the fortunate circumstance of having other players get on base before him. Ignore them.

[Cubecubed]

For MVP, If they were to poll the players, I have no doubt would come out on top.

[killer_roach]

For MVP, If they were to poll the players, I have no doubt would come out on top.

In all fairness to Dante, there's probably a bit more of a mindset of "paying one's dues" among the players themselves. Needless to say, Trout is still a one-hit wonder until, at earliest, next year, and he wasn't clearly the best player in the league (I'd argue he wasn't even clearly the second-best player in the AL).

[Dante1847]

the weird thing from this whole debate (not just here, I mean in general) is that there seems to be no consistency among the writers who vote for MVPs. yesterday's news perhaps, but Felix Hernandez won his CY Young when he went 13-12, Dustin Pedroia who his MVP without any high HR or RBI totals. So clearly the traditional "sexy" stats that a lot of writers still admire dont always matter. Other times they do, as they clearly did this year in Cabrera's case.

EDIT: meant to say no consistency among votes for awards, as Im talking about MVP AND Cy Young here

[M_Robbins5]

ha, bigmf wants to see a fight, so Ill start one!

those in favor of picking Cabrera over Trout are simply using irrational arguments: "oh he has done something that hasn't been done in 45 years"; "his team made the playoffs", etc. its just baseball purists spoon feeding bull**** reasons to justify their job and credentials, when in fact their line of thinking is flat out outdated, illogical and ultimately wrong.

consider the fact that one of those Triple Crown categories--RBI--is a stat that is dependent on situational factors and other elements outside of a player's control. it should be ignored, for the sme reasons that Wins should be ignored when evaluating pitchers. the Triple Crown as a whole is overhyped simply because it's rare, similar to hitting for the cycle. A player who hits for the cycle is going to displace his teammate who on the same night went 4-4 with 2 doubles, a HR, and a walk. of the two, who has more "value"? people too easily throw the Triple Crown out there like it tells us a lot about a player's value, when it just doesn't. it's like saying a player is good for not hitting into double plays because he strikes out a lot. Triple Crown requires a lot of randomness that needs to go the players way. I bet if Cabrera fell short on of the categories, his MVP candidacy wouldn't have been nearly as strong. that tells us all we need to know about how much to use the Triple Crown in deciding MVPs.

exactly how are sabermetrics stupid and useless? all they do is provide objective analysis of a player's value, independent of **** like place in the lineup, who got on base before, when they got on base before you, etc.

Bigmf hit it right about how to judge "best player". Doesn't just include HR's, RBIs, and batting avg. Trout had a slightly better OBP, slightly worse SLG (his home field hurt him a little), added MUCH more value running, and was more valuable defensively playing a slightly tougher position. He was the better player.

the whole MVP argument is really an argument against tradition. that might be what bugs me the most, how the Cabrera side is using arguments that have nothing to do with how much value a player had for the team.

You pretty much summed up my feelings on why Trout should have won. Thanks.

[darkwinterbeast8]

I think they're already headed in that direction.

They're playing like it but at the moment they remind me a bit more of the Bavasi ran Mariners teams that were bad but overspending on Free Agents that failed after signing (the difference being that the M's sat on those horrid contracts). When they dump all every player and start trading for prospects every year saying "We're building for the future", then they'll be at that point.

you say that like it's some asinine idea.

It is. You'll see when your team hasn't made the post season in 10-20 years because they care more about stocking the farm system with prospects than filing the roster of their big league club.

In other baseball news, I'm pleased to hear Dickey won the NL Cy Young, and a bit surprised it was by such a comfortable margin. Congrats to David Price, as well.

Glad that Dickey won the Cy Young.

yesterday's news perhaps, but Felix Hernandez won his CY Young when he went 13-12, Dustin Pedroia who his MVP without any high HR or RBI totals.

Pedroia benefited from having his MVP year happen with the Red Sox in '08. As for Felix Hernandez and his Cy Young, put him on a team that had an offense that season and his wins would jump up to roughly 18-23 wins. He was dominant in every category a pitcher could have aside from wins due to playing for the M's.

And now that spineless swine Selig had the mega trade under serious review. Saying he feels for the Miami fans. He can do nothing to mitigate the damage done to the Miami fanbase. He can only cause a nearly equal amount of damage to the Toronto fanbase.

Selig is bad but Loria destroyed baseball in Montreal and now is gutting a Marlins team after 1 year of actually spending. Miami would've been better off replacing the Orange Bowl with a State of the Art football stadium or an apartment complex or anything besides a baseball stadium where nobody will attend due to the horrid product on the field.

[killer_roach]

As for Felix Hernandez and his Cy Young, put him on a team that had an offense that season and his wins would jump up to roughly 18-23 wins. He was dominant in every category a pitcher could have aside from wins due to playing for the M's.

See also, 2011 Doug Fister. (Sorry.)

[bigmf]

Look out AL East. The Jays just bagged the Melk-Man.

Get it... Canada... Bagged Melk?

*mic drop*

[SheSaidSheSaid]

Stolen bases start runs, RBI's finish them.

All things considered, I'll take the finisher every time.

That's so asinine. Who was more valuable, Barry Bonds the year he put up 137 RBI, or Miguel Cabrera this year when he put up 139?

(if you're not catching it at first, Bonds' 137 RBI was the year he hit 73 homers)