Official Super Smash Bros. Discussion Thread

[Cipher_Peon]

Sorry, man. But Ness has always been a really bad character the entire series. His tourney results just aren't that good :/
Which sucks, since Earthbound is absolutely amazing<3
But just why does he have to steal Paula's moves? ;_;

R.O.B. on the other hand, has much better tourney results, which therefore shows that he's more capable in a competitive atmosphere. On every Brawl tier list, R.O.B's always beaten Ness.

Which shouldn't matter, since you should play as the characters you like and want to play as. Even though Ike pretty much blows, I do all I can to make the best of him

With the complete nerfing they did to Ness I don't want to her any complaints about any characters not being in the next game. There are worse things than not making an appearance

Awwww, come on man. If you put it that way, I seem like like a completely mean whiner. And that's not cool ><
Sorry if I sounded like one.

Yeah, there are worse things than not making an appearance. But I already lost 3 of my favorite characters in the transition from Melee to Brawl, and as you know disk swapping at parties is never fun. Which I totally do so we can play as Pichu

EDIT: Before anyone asks, YES I do try playing competitively with friends, so YES I do follow the competitive communities for certain series. Mainly Pokemon and Smash, though. I've been looked at funny many times, because I enjoy playing games in a different style that many are used to.

[HeyRiles]

Nope, Ness in the first two games was boss. In fact in the first game I think he was top tier, if I remember the tier list correctly. Best character in the first two games for me, hands down

Then Brawl comes around and he's even weaker than Lucas who is a knock-off of Ness. His two most powerful attacks (baseball bat and aerial A-down) take longer to execute and all his other attacks are weaker. Terrible

For the record DeDeDe was my best character in Brawl. He's unkillable! Too heavy to knock skyward, ridiculously high B-up move, and multiple Kirby jump ability

[RockBandand24Fanatic]

So, I'm thinking this. Remove:
R.O.B.
Ike
Toon Link
Wolf
Mr. Game & Watch

I loved useing ROB in brawl, It would suck if they removed him. I do agree with Toon Link and Wolf, since they are pretty useless characters. Mr. Game and Watch is awesome as well, no real reason to remove him. As for Ike, I hate using him or Ness, so I could care less if they got rid of him.

[Cipher_Peon]

Nope, Ness in the first two games was boss. In fact in the first game I think he was top tier, if I remember the tier list correctly. Best character in the first two games for me, hands down

Then Brawl comes around and he's even weaker than Lucas who is a knock-off of Ness. His two most powerful attacks (baseball bat and aerial A-down) take longer to execute and all his other attacks are weaker. Terrible

For the record DeDeDe was my best character in Brawl. He's unkillable! Too heavy to knock skyward, ridiculously high B-up move, and multiple Kirby jump ability

Sorry man, you're wrong.
http://super-smash-bros.wikia.com/wi...TSC_tier_lists

He was at 3rd place in the first tier list of the original Smash, but if I remember correctly there was some sort of catch for him being there. Like an * or something.
Then the tier list was reissued and he plummeted to the bottom :/

But if you persist that the first tier list lasted for quite some time, I'll give you that one. I'm fairly certain that the new Smash Bros tier list came out quite recently (relatively speaking).

And he's always been bad at Melee ><
In fact, one can say that the transition from Melee to Brawl was the best thing that happened to him. Which sucks since I also like Lucas a lot too, and sometimes I can't choose between them XP
The main problem with Ness is his unsafe recovery (as great as PK Thunder is, one misses the ability to double jump) and having horrendously long grab release animations, where it gives other characters openings to do infinite combos on Ness, which Ness is quite prone to. Don't get me wrong, though. I really enjoy playing as Ness and I personally find his throws to be the most satisfying to use in the game. There's something about having the choice between stamping on someone's face with fire shooting out of your fingers or just skyrocketing your opponent into the sky with the power of your mind that appeals to me XP

I'm surprised you haven't mentioned DeDeDe's best ability in Brawl, which is the power to easily pull of incredible chain grab combos. But all what you said is very true, and I really do think DeDeDe is one of the best characters in the game. And I also think he's one of the coolest! I really do like DeDeDe's character in the Kirby series and I thought Brawl gave him an incredible translation of his abilities. AND HE GETS TO THROW WADDLE DEES! <3

[LiveHomeVideo]

I just remember beating everyone's asses as Ness in all three games. But hen again, I did that with all the characters (save R.O.B since I really don't know his movelist that well, and I don't own the game or a Wii). But if he's weaker in Brawl, I guess that could make someone mad.

And why remove characters? I think they should have every character from every game (save Toon Link or Young Link, whichever one you want to get rid of since they're the same thing), and add more. After all, it's the WiiU, which will have more storage than the Wii.

[Lameboy19]

Sorry man, you're wrong.
http://super-smash-bros.wikia.com/wi...TSC_tier_lists

He was at 3rd place in the first tier list of the original Smash, but if I remember correctly there was some sort of catch for him being there. Like an * or something.
Then the tier list was reissued and he plummeted to the bottom :/

But if you persist that the first tier list lasted for quite some time, I'll give you that one. I'm fairly certain that the new Smash Bros tier list came out quite recently (relatively speaking).

And he's always been bad at Melee ><
In fact, one can say that the transition from Melee to Brawl was the best thing that happened to him. Which sucks since I also like Lucas a lot too, and sometimes I can't choose between them XP
The main problem with Ness is his unsafe recovery (as great as PK Thunder is, one misses the ability to double jump) and having horrendously long grab release animations, where it gives other characters openings to do infinite combos on Ness, which Ness is quite prone to. Don't get me wrong, though. I really enjoy playing as Ness and I personally find his throws to be the most satisfying to use in the game. There's something about having the choice between stamping on someone's face with fire shooting out of your fingers or just skyrocketing your opponent into the sky with the power of your mind that appeals to me XP

I'm surprised you haven't mentioned DeDeDe's best ability in Brawl, which is the power to easily pull of incredible chain grab combos. But all what you said is very true, and I really do think DeDeDe is one of the best characters in the game. And I also think he's one of the coolest! I really do like DeDeDe's character in the Kirby series and I thought Brawl gave him an incredible translation of his abilities. AND HE GETS TO THROW WADDLE DEES! <3

I'm sorry I really just can't understand getting competitive to the point of making tier lists for SSB

I mean are they based on anything other than basic means and who wins a tournament?

like SSF4 has a tier list broken down with a set formula having to do with frame data so it can somewhat judge each characters potential at top level play, these just look like a bunch of dudes slapped them together.

[Cipher_Peon]

The only point is to list how well characters do in tournaments, so you have a basic idea on what characters you might face if you enter one. There's not much more to it, but there's this really bad stigma associated with tier lists that the Anti-Competitive Smash Community created. There's nothing really /wrong/ with tier lists, but there's nothing really /right/ with them either. It's a reference, and how someone uses it is up to them. And you would be surprised at how much depth the competitive Smash community looks at the game too. They also look at frame data and have all sorts of complicated formulas that make my brain explode. All this effort into trying to make the game competitive makes me incredibly angry when someone disregards Smash as a fighting game completely. Sure, it's approach to the fighting genre is somewhat unorthodox but it's still got the depth and skill that normal fighters require. It's just that the Smash games are a lot more approachable when it comes to new players.

I remember renting Tatsunoko vs Capcom and I was completely dumbfounded at how horrible it is to get into. I mean, they didn't tell you the buttons you needed to do certain attacks, only their translation of the buttons which only veterans would understand, but those aren't on my Wii control, dude. I was just button mashing for the whole time I had it. I guess that's the appeal to it (the complexity and new user unfriendliness), but is that really what competitive fighting games all about? A competitive fighter should be easy enough to get into and deep enough to keep playing and become more skilled at. New blood in a competitive scene is always wanted, so the competitive community can grow and flourish with a larger population which in turn brings forth more resources, more opportunities for testing, and more players to have fun with. In my humble opinion, Melee struck this balance the best. Brawl, although a fantastic experience, made it TOO new user friendly and delibritely went out of it's way to impede on the competitive scene. Tripping is the biggest example of this. Which is actually why I'm worried that Sakurai is in charge for the new Smash. Don't get me wrong, he's a fantastic VGD with a great vision for his projects, but his video game philosophy is somewhere along the lines of eliminating the gap between competitive players and total newbies. Sure, the new guys would be pretty pleased for a while, but until they get their butt handed to them by an even NEWER player, then I imagine they would be quite upset. His approach to including new players of any skill level is perfect for a game like Kirby, and if used right in a fighting game but he went too far in Brawl, IMO.

And yes, there shouldn't be any removal of characters. And they should totally bring back all the characters they axed to begin with :3

[HeyRiles]

Chain grabbing is awful. Combos are great but only with a combination of moves. Spamming the same move over and over is trolling and essentially cheating so I don't use it. I only play with my brothers though but I've definitely won a number of games online

As far as tier lists, the last one I've seen for all three are always the first ones, so I haven't been keeping score. In truth the tier lists don't mean anything in Super Smash Bros, since the only formula they use is polls from tournaments asking the best players to rank the characters, I believe. It's natural the coolest characters will end up at the top and will be used/trained with more often than other characters. In my opinion, Ness is easily the best character in the first and second games

And why remove characters? I think they should have every character from every game (save Toon Link or Young Link, whichever one you want to get rid of since they're the same thing), and add more. After all, it's the WiiU, which will have more storage than the Wii.

They removed characters from Melee to Brawl so I don't see why they wouldn't here. Game & Watch would be replaced by Paper Mario, Wolf and Ike are essentially third clones, R.O.B. isn't even really a thing, and Toon Link is Toon Link. I mean it's just like any other game like Mortal Kombat with fighters that come and go

[LiveHomeVideo]

They removed characters from Melee to Brawl so I don't see why they wouldn't here. Game & Watch would be replaced by Paper Mario, Wolf and Ike are essentially third clones, R.O.B. isn't even really a thing, and Toon Link is Toon Link. I mean it's just like any other game like Mortal Kombat with fighters that come and go

We can dream, right? I'm not saying they won't remove any, I'm just saying it'd be cool if they didn't is all. But there's about a 99.999999999% there will be characters removed between Brawl and the next game.

[Cipher_Peon]

Yes, I agree with you on that. Chain grabbing is not something I would ever do, but that's just me. The point is DeDeDe HAS the ability to do something that is quite broken, and that gives him an advantage over other characters. I'm not the one who made it up *shrugs*

And as someone whose lurked the Smashboards forums for a very very long time, I can definitely say that the tier lists are made through the statistics of competitive level play tournaments. They don't ask for opinions on whose better, they just take the raw data of how well certain characters did in a tourney and use their magic formulas and long weeks of discussion to put it together into a nice readable list, instead of just a nightmare of words with numbers next to them. Tier lists don't mean anything besides how often you'll see a character do well in competitive play, so you can prepare for those characters. For example, Meta Knight is going to be everywhere since he's pretty much the best character by a million miles and people play to win. Is MK my best character? Nope! People can say that he's not the best character, but chances are if you're going to enter a tourney, you're going to see a lot of him because of his numerous lists of competitive strengths and matchups that other characters can't provide. Then there's the whole "Oh this character is used more often, so obviously it's going to be more developed in the metagame" argument. Although I can see where people get with this, I really don't think this is the case. Tier lists are never one and done. They're always being worked on and new strategies, combos, techniques, etc are always being discovered. People look for the best way to win, and in Brawl's case the best way to win is to find a way to safely defeat the many MKs you're going to encounter. So people go out of their way to look for ways to beat him and other highly used/higher tiered characters. Sometimes they're successful. That's the thing, more experience and skill will always beat a character whose higher on the tier list with a lower skilled player. Even though this is true, the tier list is a great resource for those who need it and something to be ignored by those who don't. Besides, it's really interesting to talk about :3

And before anything, no I don't play competitive Smash. I'm not really that good and I consider myself a casual gamer and stuff. But the whole entire community is extremely fascinating, which is why I follow it
JUST LIKE ROCK BAND<3

And I can see why you say Wolf is a clone, but Ike? Ike is pretty different from Marth, and the only thing they have in common is the fact they have swords. Which reminds me, Ike's translation into Brawl is terrible! In the Fire Emblem games, he's not slow but strong! He's pretty damn fast in the games ;_;
And he has an attack that can attack from far away, which would be a great projectile attack. Which would be much cooler than his completely made up Eruption attack >_>