For PS3 Players (double bass charting)

[dansolo]

EDIT: Oh, and hi-hat pedal, two hands on keys, bends and stuff on guitar, &c.

HMX charts a difference between open and closed hi hat, with two keyboards you can play keys with both hands http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vNhHr96w79M as far as etc. not everything is perfect but most of it comes pretty damn close, enough for it to be mind boggling to me why they are so intent not to support a full bass drum track

[SirDavidTLynch]

Sometimes Harmonix author hi-hat to yellow whether it's open or closed, and if you're not using the sticks on the hi-hat, it's ignored completely.

The keyboard example can't possibly be serious. There's no pro mode, and even basic mode has to be authored to guitar standards, which don't allow certain chords or notes within sustains. It's a lot easier to fill in the blanks on a double bass part than the actual notes on a keyboard. Especially if the charted bass part is bass guitar, such as the vast majority of rock songs.

[HMXLachesis]

And maybe they should have until they found a more streamlined solution, instead of creating this messy system of incompatible versions being sold of the exact same song (see: RB3 versions as well).

To clear up some confusion here....

We weren't planning on doing 2x bass pedal songs in RB3. (In fact, the first 2x bass pedal songs were authored in the RBN1 era, so they technically showed up in RB2 as well as RB3. And we definitely weren't doing them in RB2.) Consequently, we didn't build any support in for double bass songs.

However, the RBN authoring community felt that there was a demand for 2x bass pedal songs. They asked us if they could do some songs charted this way as an experiment. We considered their request and said it was OK as long as they were clearly and consistently labeled. The community discussed the matter and voted on the (2x bass pedal) terminology for indicating double bass.

As it turned out, the experiment was a success and there definitely was a market for these songs. We're glad that the community was able to find a way to meet this demand even though it wasn't explicitly part of RB3. Yes, it causes some confusion from time to time ("what does 2x bass pedal mean?")- but, for the most part, people don't have a problem with it.

I think it would have been a mistake to refuse the community's request, even if it wasn't an intended feature. I'm glad the RBN authors took initiative and brought this new level of charting to the game.

[Icemage]

To clear up some confusion here....

We weren't planning on doing 2x bass pedal songs in RB3. (In fact, the first 2x bass pedal songs were authored in the RBN1 era, so they technically showed up in RB2 as well as RB3. And we definitely weren't doing them in RB2.) Consequently, we didn't build any support in for double bass songs.

However, the RBN authoring community felt that there was a demand for 2x bass pedal songs. They asked us if they could do some songs charted this way as an experiment. We considered their request and said it was OK as long as they were clearly and consistently labeled. The community discussed the matter and voted on the (2x bass pedal) terminology for indicating double bass.

As it turned out, the experiment was a success and there definitely was a market for these songs. We're glad that the community was able to find a way to meet this demand even though it wasn't explicitly part of RB3. Yes, it causes some confusion from time to time ("what does 2x bass pedal mean?")- but, for the most part, people don't have a problem with it.

I think it would have been a mistake to refuse the community's request, even if it wasn't an intended feature. I'm glad the RBN authors took initiative and brought this new level of charting to the game.

I appreciate the response, but to be quite honest, none of what you said addresses the issue outlined in my post, which is that (whatever other mitigating factors may exist), there is a lack of elegance with how things like 2xbass and RB3 versions are structured.

Problem: One person buying a song with one chart can not play that same exact song with someone else who owns another version of the song.

Problem: One person who is trying to split the difference now has to buy the same song twice, either because they already got the original version and want the newer feature(s) and/or they want to avoid having the problem of not being compatible with friends online. But that introduces new problems: clutter in the setlist, and paying full price for the same song twice.

I'm not going to beat this otherwise dead horse any longer because frankly we've been talking about these things ever since the first separate-but-equal tracks first appeared, but I'll close with this comment...

While not everyone cares, if the goal is to encourage people to buy DLC, I would think it's in your (HMX's) best interest to make sure that process is as uncomplicated and painless as possible, and that there are no serious drawbacks to doing so.

Right now, RB3 and 2xBass versions are a compatibility headache, and the fact that the RB3 engine itself does absolutely nothing to help you identify what songs are even shared in common online just makes that headache worse.

I hope that any future product in the series can find a way to detangle this situation so that people can go back to enjoying the game and the music instead of bickering about why everyone has a specific song but no one can play it.

[Santa Claustrophobia]

Problem: One person buying a song with one chart can not play that same exact song with someone else who owns another version of the song.

This problem isn't exclusive to 2x songs. I don't have any RB3 Versions yet and that means I can't play with anybody who does. And with people who willingly delete songs, then that's hardly my fault. I mean, I still have the cover of Tom Sawyer because I don't hate Rush enough to delete it nor do I like them enough to buy the studio version.

If somebody deletes the RB1 version, then that's still another song that wouldn't match up with anybody.

Problem: One person who is trying to split the difference now has to buy the same song twice, either because they already got the original version and want the newer feature(s) and/or they want to avoid having the problem of not being compatible with friends online. But that introduces new problems: clutter in the setlist, and paying full price for the same song twice.

Again, still not an exclusive problem with 2x songs.

What these problems really show is a mindset that over emphasises the wrong points. Mainly that, one, it's so complicated to match DLC. If you're playing random people and expecting high numbers of matching songs, you're doing it wrong. In this case, the people who want them will get them and then they'll match with others like them. By playing with randos, you're just making it worse by expecting this.

Two, that clutter in the library is a real thing that actually matters. I'm sure it's irksome, but nobody is forcing you to keep both of them. Pick one and live with it or deal with the 'clutter' because matching songs is so damned important.

And Three, paying full price for the same song is kind of what the freedom to chose is all about. So again, if matching with as many people as possible really matters, then it's a small price to pay. Otherwise, just pick one and stick with it. If drums aren't a big thing, then the choice is pretty easy.

Anyway, what you're really saying is that HMX was dumb enough to say yes to the idea in the first place. Ideally, what they should've done was incorporated it into Pro the same way the cymbals work. If it doesn't detect the second pedal, then you only get the non-2x chart. But then it becomes a question about whether or not HMX either thought of that or had the ability to make it work.

In the end, they made the same choice as they did with unbundling Pro guitar charts. They allowed it so that people who want it can get it. These 'problems' only exist if you make them exist.

Chose to buy it and live with the choice or don't. Remember, 2x charts are still not 'officially' provided by HMX. This is fan service pure and simple.

[Icemage]

Chose to buy it and live with the choice or don't. Remember, 2x charts are still not 'officially' provided by HMX. This is fan service pure and simple.

That's all well and good, but if Harmonix really wants to present Rock Band as a "platform" and really build on the strength of the library, getting these impediments out of the way and simplifying the process is a key element.

I cringe every time I buy more songs because I know that with every song I buy, my online experience degrades even further -> and this happens every single week because, flaws and all, I still like Rock Band and like showing my support by buying the songs that are available each week.

That doesn't mean I'm happy about the steady deterioration in the quality of the game as I buy more songs.

It's not even just with randoms - that situation is horrible no matter how much DLC you may or may not have, and the problems with matching DLC are only the tip of the iceberg. I have a hefty friends list with a bunch of people who have quite a bit of DLC (200++ DLC for the vast majority of them). You know what? It's STILL a pain in the butt to find specific playable songs, even when I'm playing only with friends online - even if it's just ONE friend online, because probably only 300-400 of my 2100+ songs are lit. That's less than 1 in 5. And it's a different 1 in 5 for every person on my friends list aside from the on-disc stuff.

The ONLY time I don't have this problem is when I'm playing with the tiny handful of players on my friends list who are like me and spend a TON of money buying virtually everything.

TL;DR Why does Rock Band get progressively worse to play online as you spend more on DLC? That's not a good way to convince people to buy more songs.

[dansolo]

Sometimes Harmonix author hi-hat to yellow whether it's open or closed, and if you're not using the sticks on the hi-hat, it's ignored completely.

Nice work, you pointed out two examples amongst over 3,000 songs of inconsistent charting. The extremely vast majority of time hi hat is dealt with appropriately. Also, the bass cleff on piano with two hands is 5 lane version instead of pro but you still get a pretty good idea of the part. You guys on 360 (looking at you SirDavidTLynch) should appreciate all of the awesome things the Rock Band Network authors have brought to your gameplay experience.
ps. PABST, BLUE RIBBON! r.i.p. Dennis Hopper

[dansolo]

To clear up some confusion here....

We weren't planning on doing 2x bass pedal songs in RB3. (In fact, the first 2x bass pedal songs were authored in the RBN1 era, so they technically showed up in RB2 as well as RB3. And we definitely weren't doing them in RB2.) Consequently, we didn't build any support in for double bass songs.

However, the RBN authoring community felt that there was a demand for 2x bass pedal songs. They asked us if they could do some songs charted this way as an experiment. We considered their request and said it was OK as long as they were clearly and consistently labeled. The community discussed the matter and voted on the (2x bass pedal) terminology for indicating double bass.

As it turned out, the experiment was a success and there definitely was a market for these songs. We're glad that the community was able to find a way to meet this demand even though it wasn't explicitly part of RB3. Yes, it causes some confusion from time to time ("what does 2x bass pedal mean?")- but, for the most part, people don't have a problem with it.

I think it would have been a mistake to refuse the community's request, even if it wasn't an intended feature. I'm glad the RBN authors took initiative and brought this new level of charting to the game.

It doesn't look like the community on the boards it too excited for RBN 2x bass on ps3 but I for one obviously would be extremely thrilled if you guys decided to support it. I would be interested to hear why the decision to include double bass on disc and in HMX dlc was voted against, for drummers it would have been a valuable addition to the game going back to RB2 and you guys did decide to release a double pedal several years ago http://www.amazon.com/Universal-Rock.../dp/B001VIF550, let alone now with the midi functionality.

[Santa Claustrophobia]

TL;DR Why does Rock Band get progressively worse to play online as you spend more on DLC? That's not a good way to convince people to buy more songs.

Which is amazing because HMX's plan to convince people to buy more songs seems to be based on 'Here! This is probably cool to you and you may like it! If so, then buy it!'

This constant refrain about how it makes online play unwieldy is a user created expectation. Again, HMX can certainly make a better effort to eliminate some of these situations, but blaming HMX for creating it in the first place based on a personal choice to buy all or most of the available songs isn't going to work.

Even if HMX had a piece of code that made sorting through matching DLC easier, that still doesn't eliminate the 'problem' of somebody owning a version of a song that you don't. Masters and covers, RB3 Versions, and 2x versions. These are all situations where matching DLC can be affected.

The only solution that 'works' is for HMX to release (or authorise for release) only one version of a song and never, ever, ever re-visit it. And while that doesn't fix the 'problem' of somebody else not owning a particular song, it does mean that when everybody does, they have the same song period.

Your particular example is that even when playing with people you know, matching up is hard. So why should HMX catch hell because your friends decided not to buy every song?

The constant release of weekly DLC was only ever going to result in this. Not everybody was going to want or be able to buy everything. Despairing because of this is a weak attempt at victimisation. You might as well complain that you can't play with 360 or Wii owners if only to increase the chance of playing with people who have as many songs as you do.

You bought your system of choice. You bought the songs you wanted to buy. Now you want HMX to fix it so that your personal online experience is better than it is based on a situation that they can't even control. And the thing you want them to do most won't actually fix the 'problem' you have at this moment.

How many times do we need to see threads from people complaining about matching DLC? 'I have 500 songs and nobody has anything!' goes the refrain. And yet it doesn't occur to them that with 2000+ 'official' songs, the other people could also have 500 songs. Just 500 different songs.

I just don't see how getting upset with people because they chose to budget their purchases or exercise more discrimination with what they actually spend their money on is a 'problem' that HMX needs to fix.

In this case 2x was allowed because people seemingly wanted it. It's been successful. But HMX has always maintained that there must be single pedal versions to comply with their own rules. For the purposes of this thread, it's about whether the PS3 should get any of them. I think they should, but I also know that people will complain because one or more of the five song limit is then taken by a song 'I already have and don't want to be forced to buy again!'

The real solution for the PS3 is to avoid the problem of multiple, incompatible copies of a song by at least eliminating this one area that can be controlled. Would that help?

[SirDavidTLynch]

Nice work, you pointed out two examples amongst over 3,000 songs of inconsistent charting. The extremely vast majority of time hi hat is dealt with appropriately. Also, the bass cleff on piano with two hands is 5 lane version instead of pro but you still get a pretty good idea of the part.

"Gold Dust Woman" is another one with parts where you don't hit the hi-hat, so it's ignored despite clearly making a sound. There's even a yellow tom that made me think Harmonix screwed up the pro drum chart at first. I'd probably think of more, but I don't play drums that much.

Even if you ignore the "it's not 'pro' without double bass" argument that the keyboard example contradicts, even the basic mode left hand part isn't authored if the song uses a bass guitar, such as the vast majority of rock music ever recorded. You can't accuse me of selectively linking to the exceptions to the rule right after doing the exact same thing.