What Happened to Flame Notes In Rockband Blitz?????

[Bront20]

This isn't about getting stars. You can get gold stars on all but a handful of songs quite easily even using noob combos like Road Rage/Blast Notes. It's only a very few outliers and really long or solo heavy songs that require even Jackpot, much less Flame.

I resent that RR/Blast is refered to as a "noob combo". I use it because it's fun and effective but still requires some though. Simply by aiming RR (which takes some skill and planning) and knowing when to use it requires some practice, song knowledge (knowing where the gates are), and patience. RR/Blast in the hands of an unskilled player isn't that much better than anything else. Sure, it doesn't require the precision timing that Jack/Flame used to, or Jack/anything in general, but there's some level of risk/reward with Jackpot, and even then it's not always the best power up for some songs.

I for one am glad Flame got nerfed, though I think it was nerfed a bit too hard (Went from 3000 to 500 (I think)? 1500-2000 might have been a better place to start, if I'm off, a 50% nerf to start and go back up from there). Once they have the proper score ratio down, I think they'll probably bump everything up a bit to make current leaderboard scores attainable.

The problem Blitz has is score creep effects star outputs. So, things like GS the setlist become easy for anyone to do, so they can't simply "buff till they get it right".

Ultimately, the issue is that, yes, people play for the leaderboards even if they don't all play to be #1 on them. Everyone likes moving up on them and beating their own score. But there's more to it than just that, and if it takes a nerf to balance things out a bit, then I'm all for it.

My other balancing thoughts:

Synch seems a bit too powerful, but I also find it annoying to use personally so I don't. You can GS songs using only synch though (not even hitting notes), which I think isn't a good thing.

Blitz Mode could use a bit of a buff, just to make holding combo a little more important.

The problem with Jackpot is that it tracks everything, so flames, blast, whatever gets a boost from Jackpot. For some reason, I don't think point doubler does this. Jackpot is actually hindered by the larger hit window though, as it makes changing tracks dangerous.

Shockwave feels week. I think it needs to go just a bit further / energy used (I haven't used it in a while though).

Runaway Note is useless. Easy to miss initially, and can hinder the use of other powerups. Maybe slow it down just a bit and make more appear, or make it worth a lot more. Does Jackpot/Doubler effect this score? If it does, beware of exploitation.

[Epsilon82]

I resent that RR/Blast is refered to as a "noob combo". I use it because it's fun and effective but still requires some though. Simply by aiming RR (which takes some skill and planning) and knowing when to use it requires some practice, song knowledge (knowing where the gates are), and patience. RR/Blast in the hands of an unskilled player isn't that much better than anything else. Sure, it doesn't require the precision timing that Jack/Flame used to, or Jack/anything in general, but there's some level of risk/reward with Jackpot, and even then it's not always the best power up for some songs.

I'm sorry if I came across as being derogatory in my references to that combo. I probably should have used the phrase "beginner-friendly" instead. Let me elaborate a bit more on why I say that because all of the elements involved may not be immediately apparent to those who haven't spent much time with more advanced combos.

In addition to the obvious benefits of granting risk free and easy points, the biggest advantage Road Rage (or Bottle Rockets to a lesser extent) and Blast Notes have is that they also help you raise your multipliers. If you just go after overdrive and blast notes, you can usually have your multipliers raised long before a checkpoint, giving you the freedom to sit in your Super or chase after every subsequent overdrive or purple note at will. The fact that Road Rage will also hit Blast Notes for you further multiplies this effect.

By contrast, someone using Jackpot and Flame Notes have none of these advantages. They have to be much more conscious of pathing and frequent lane switching to make sure that they don't get surprised with a +0 or +1 cap, and that's made even more difficult because of the necessity of having overdrive and activating right when an initial Flame happens to spawn. And this is all on top of the added technical difficulty that Jackpot/Flame requires, which is that they have to never make a mistake or their entire run could be shot.

Sure, there's some amount of strategy involved in deciding when to fire Road Rage, but generally it just involves making sure you don't fire when one or more lanes are particularly quiet. That pales in comparison to the constant snap decisions Jack/Flame players have to make, all under the added pressure of not having virtually auto-leveled multipliers and not being able to make a single mistake. Deciding whether to chase a flame note two lanes over, which could ultimately add another 20 or 30K to a Jackpot, at the risk of losing everything, is far beyond anything a Road Rage/Blast Note player would have to contend with.

There's absolutely nothing wrong with people using Road Rage/Blast Notes. The fact that most of the game's songs are readily gold-starred with even moderately decent use of that combo is evidence enough that it's a smart strategy, especially for those less technically skilled. There is something, however, VERY wrong with people using Road Rage/Blast Notes expecting to post scores comparable to those who are effectively using Jackpot/Flame. Providing greater rewards for greater risk and challenge is a fundamental point of any skill-based game, and if there were no enhanced scoring incentive to use the much more demanding combos, they might as well not be in the game at all.

Also, to address a couple of other points you made.

1) Yes, "score creep" would be a factor in the gold star cutoffs, but honestly, the number of songs that can't readily be gold starred by a reasonably competent player using even a beginner-friendly combo is vanishingly small to begin with. Just by its nature, Blitz is a much easier game to gold-star than RB3. It's pretty clear that what they're worried about is the top of the leaderboards being dominated by a possible exploit. If making songs (most of which are a cinch to gold star anyway) even easier to gold star is a side effect, I don't think they'd lose much sleep over it, and I don't think anyone else should either.

2) I'm almost certain that points earned from Blast Notes are NOT folded into the Jackpot 3X bonus. I'm pretty sure that some guys from Scorehero confirmed this a while ago. The game probably makes a distinction in what applies to Jackpot between the way the points are gained. Specifically, Flame Notes are different from Blast Notes in that you get the points for actually hitting the note. Blast Notes, on the other hand, only provide points in relation to the number of "surrounding" notes that the radius affects. You've probably noticed that if you hit a Blast Note in an intro or solo, the game actually shows zero points if there aren't any notes for it to hit.

I think they did this intentionally, and wisely, because since Blast Notes are so much more common than Flames and don't require hitting any to keep them spreading, including them in the Jackpot bonus would make using anything other than Blast pretty much pointless in all but rare situations.

[Bront20]

I'm sorry if I came across as being derogatory in my references to that combo. I probably should have used the phrase "beginner-friendly" instead. ...

It wasn't just you, I was just getting sick of it when you did it too. Yes, it's "easier" and has a bit less risk, but it still requires thoughts and choices, and some are far from obvious.

I do however disagree that because Jack/Flame has more risk it should that much more rewarding (we're talking double the points of other power up combos in many situations). If it was, then it becomes THE combo to use, which is what HMX is trying to avoid.

Also, to address a couple of other points you made.

1) Yes, "score creep" would be a factor in the gold star cutoffs, but honestly, the number of songs that can't readily be gold starred by a reasonably competent player using even a beginner-friendly combo is vanishingly small to begin with. Just by its nature, Blitz is a much easier game to gold-star than RB3. It's pretty clear that what they're worried about is the top of the leaderboards being dominated by a possible exploit. If making songs (most of which are a cinch to gold star anyway) even easier to gold star is a side effect, I don't think they'd lose much sleep over it, and I don't think anyone else should either.

The average blitz run supposedly is 3-4 stars. Remember, we're the (lunatic?) frindge case in Blitz scoring here.

2) I'm almost certain that points earned from Blast Notes are NOT folded into the Jackpot 3X bonus. I'm pretty sure that some guys from Scorehero confirmed this a while ago. The game probably makes a distinction in what applies to Jackpot between the way the points are gained. Specifically, Flame Notes are different from Blast Notes in that you get the points for actually hitting the note. Blast Notes, on the other hand, only provide points in relation to the number of "surrounding" notes that the radius affects. You've probably noticed that if you hit a Blast Note in an intro or solo, the game actually shows zero points if there aren't any notes for it to hit.

I think they did this intentionally, and wisely, because since Blast Notes are so much more common than Flames and don't require hitting any to keep them spreading, including them in the Jackpot bonus would make using anything other than Blast pretty much pointless in all but rare situations.

I think that not allowing Flame Notes to count in Jackpot may have "fixed" the Jack/Flame side of the balance issue, though I don't see the Jack/Flame issue as being quite as utterly broken as the Bandmate/Flame issue, which it wouldn't solve (Bandmate needs to be able to hit and activate purple notes).

That's one of the reasons Shockwave isn't very popular, as it doesn't hit any purple notes like Bandmate/Road Rage, nor does it score them better like 2X or Jackpot. Yes, it lets you double or even triple score notes with pinball and just hitting them normally, but there's no real other synergy with any other upgrade.

No, not every upgrade will be ultimately perfectly balanced, and there should be some level or risk/reward in your power up choices. I just think it was out of balance as it was. This fix has created other issues, but I at least get what they were trying to do.

[SheSaidSheSaid]

Does anyone have a video of this alleged "exploit" in action? I keep trying to picture it and I can't understand how it's something other than prudent, albeit unorthodox, play.

[Bront20]

Does anyone have a video of this alleged "exploit" in action? I keep trying to picture it and I can't understand how it's something other than prudent, albeit unorthodox, play.

Magnet made one I think. There's another one out there too.

[silenttype01]

Can we get a link to Magnet's youtube channel? or a direct link to the video? or the name of Magnet's channel on youtube?

[grace_pressure]

This is it, I think.

[SheSaidSheSaid]

Thanks. That's pretty much what I was picturing. I don't see why it's cheating. I figured it as something merely that the very tippy-top fraction of a percent of players who live and die with where they are on the leaderboard would do because the game is work and not fun to them (whereas I just play and wherever I score I score).

[rjbr2000]

Just got back from holiday and I've read a bit of this thread a few days ago and I saw a post about a skeleton crew being used. If that's the case, are they new people? And call me insane, but could it be an inside job, like someone wanted to sabotage the game, since the game can be updated without the use of patches? I know it sounds crazy, but it occurred to me.

[JCirri]

It seems the goal was to some extent balance upper end flame usage against upper end usage of other combinations. The problem is that due to its uncapped nature, top end flame usage is not even marginally comparable to average or even fairly skilled flame execution. This may help balance previous 1st place scores which doubled the points of other combinations, but it's at the expense of cutting all other flame scores by an equally large margin which were previously pretty comparable to other favorable loadout options.

Top scores are the result of hundreds or thousands of hours of practice from a minority of talented players, and the scoring curve is not the same for all power-ups, nor is the difficulty curve.

Let's say between after 50 and 500 total playing hours, a player is able to improve a song's score:

• from 300k to 350k using loadout X

• from 275k to 700k using loadout Y

Also assume theoretical optimal scores for loadout X and loadout Y are 400k and 2M, respectively.

Is this really an unbalanced system?

Players with a good deal of experience (50 hours) still can't utilize loadout Y well enough to exceed their personal best from loadout X (much less the theoretical maximum at ~8x higher). If loadout Y is nerfed by half, it's still possible to approach 1M with but would take nearly 500 hours of additional practice before even matching loadout X.

That may be exaggerated but it's similar in principle. To give a more personal example I never considered trying to rely on jackpot/flame until after I had several hundred gold stars in my library. Initially it was incredibly difficult but I knew I was within reach of my scores if I played conservatively and hit some jackpots with flames, so I kept at it. Eventually I began surpassing my scores and it became my preference. It's been really rewarding to continually push the limits of my ability by taking more risk. After experimenting with all the game has to offer I agree with those who say it's a fun way to play the game.

If the adjustment stands, the next logical way players will approach top scores with reliability will be to develop skill with pinball focus as others have mentioned. I'd expect a few months from now we'll have a similar discussion as outliers begin to stick out again; perhaps sooner with tournaments as motivation. If upper end pinball scores are similarly scaled down, then we've effectively done the same, removing its balance for all but the best of pinball players.

I don't think anyone would argue passionately for pinball as it's disconnected from the core elements of the game, but flames are the ultimate way to push those core elements to the limit, especially when paired with jackpot. It's unfortunate that it's possible to exploit bandmate/flame for 4-lane songs, but more so disappointing that it's potentially resulted in such a fun part of the game being removed.