What Happened to Flame Notes In Rockband Blitz?????

[JCirri]

I played a bit today to experiment and it seems blast notes are likely to become the most popular default choice for those who don't care to learn to rely on pinball. For many players, and all players competing for 1st place, blast notes come with a randomized and predetermined bonus amount the moment the game generates the song's note chart. Most differences in scores are now likely to result from a combination of an overdrive power-up and replaying until at least a few blast notes align with unison phrases. This will be incredibly frustrating for songs with checkpoints that require a blast note to get necessary multipliers, and will likely result in burning blitz coins on far more restarts.

With flame notes it was possible for reasonable skill to overcome unlucky spawns, and I very rarely restarted knowing that I could always take a higher risk on the next jackpot to potentially recover from prior loss. That's in fact how I play the game and continue to improve, I only take (what I consider) high risk after botching a run. As a result it's always fun finishing out the song while testing my skill and sometimes improving in score.

There were still songs that lent themselves toward other power-up loadouts, such as fast-tempo songs where OD drains too fast for jackpot to be worthy, overall dense songs across all parts or with many unisons where the benefit of more frequent area-of-effect bursts outweigh what's been achieved so far with flames. If we could somehow look at theoretical optimal scores, pinball/sync and jackpot/flame would almost always be at the top and far beyond any 1st place score that exists today. But I don't think it's the right decision to balance the upper end of the curves at the expense of fun for many and a lot of the competition that existed beneath that point.

The community will keep getting better as long as there's room to improve, and there just happens to be a lot of room for improvement with flames and pinball. There's no way around that without a software patch to change those mechanics. If tournaments were the primary focal point then I stand by my suggestion to use 5-lane songs where overall skill is most likely to determine the outcome and power-up diversity is most likely.

I don't think it's possible to "bump things up" after establishing a better ratio with this nerf and guarantee that existing scores will be attainable. The amount of buffing needed for a fixed value power-up to match top flame scores for certain songs would be far too extreme. The only way to make that guarantee would be to wipe leaderboards (or at least affected combinations that are above every unaffected combination, which would divide and anger some people) or revert this nerf and potentially work on buffs elsewhere.

"Score creep" affecting star outputs is a valid concern but "bumping back up" would have the same result. Also as I've tried to illustrate, given the nature of these uncapped power-ups I think the portion of the scoring curves which overlap the majority weren't really that unbalanced.

[Epsilon82]

Very well said, JCirri. Agreed on all counts.

I would like to emphasize again how good of an idea yours is to simply use 5-lane songs for the Tournaments as a much better way to reduce the impact of the exploit. In case it's not obvious to people after watching the video linked in here, the exploit hinges on the nature of flame spreading. When there are only four lanes in a song, and you have Bandmate playing on a lane with active flame notes, the spreading algorithm works in such a way that as long as Bandmate is active, for each flame that Bandmate hits for you, you are guaranteed to have at least one flame spawn in either of two lanes. So as long as you hit every note in 2 lanes simultaneously, you are guaranteed to be getting more and more flames until Bandmate runs out.

The entire exploit relies on the guarantee of getting flames in at least one of the two lanes. With five-lane songs, you no longer have that guarantee. You can still do well with Bandmate/Flame on five-lane songs, but it's not completely foolproof as it was demonstrated in Magnet's video of a four-lane song.

And yes, if you're not going to use Pinball (or, in other words, you actually prefer to play a music game in a music game), then Blast Notes are really the only practical option for anyone. And where's the variety in that? Seriously, it's the only option left, because now both Flame Notes and Runaway Notes are completely useless.

All Harmonix will have accomplished with this in terms of "scoring balance" for Tournaments is severely crippling and reducing the overall diversity of loadout possibilities, ruining the enjoyment factor of the game for all kinds of players, especially skilled ones, just to create a situation where those inclined to go for high scores are just going to be forced to use Pinball, a powerup which has nothing to do with interacting with music and at the highest levels requires far more twitch skill than even Jackpot/Flame. Which means that the chances of less-skilled players being competitive in tournaments is even lower than it was before. How is that at all preferable to the status quo ante-nerf?

[Epsilon82]

It wasn't just you, I was just getting sick of it when you did it too. Yes, it's "easier" and has a bit less risk, but it still requires thoughts and choices, and some are far from obvious.

"A bit less risk" is quite an understatement, considering there's literally no risk at all. As JCirri said, Blast Notes (just like overdrive phrases) are of completely predetermined static placement from the moment the song starts, so your only responsibility is to see where they are and go hit them. Even if you're not using Jackpot, your capacity for hitting Flame Notes is largely determined by your own play. You have to hit the first one, and then read and react very quickly after that or you won't get any more. If you miss a Blast Note, it has no bearing whatsoever on any future potential Blast Notes. They're all still there for the taking. Plus, you have to worry less about multipliers than you do with Flames, because they help you raise them, and throw Jackpot in the mix and it's not even in the same league. If anything, RR/BN is what's really overpowered relative to the skill differential required for effective employment.

I do however disagree that because Jack/Flame has more risk it should that much more rewarding (we're talking double the points of other power up combos in many situations). If it was, then it becomes THE combo to use, which is what HMX is trying to avoid.

You said yourself that you realize that all powerup combos can never be perfectly balanced. With that being the case, when you're talking about the high end of the skill spectrum (which is supposedly where all this concern is coming from with respect to leaderboards and tournaments), you're always going to have something as the highest theoretical combo. Making high-skill combos worth significantly less than low-skill combos isn't remotely a solution to that "problem." Trying to make it so that any powerup combination is equally viable is both impossible and inadvisable. It should always be about maximizing the score you yourself are capable of; a player who isn't skilled enough to use Jackpot/Flame or any other combo will not score as well using it as they would with others. That's not a problem that can be solved without completely rendering powerup choices meaningless, which is what they've now essentially done with the Note powerups. As it stands now, it's either Pinball or Blast if you want to have any prayer of scoring decently, and Pinball has nothing to do with the music.

The average blitz run supposedly is 3-4 stars. Remember, we're the (lunatic?) frindge case in Blitz scoring here.

I don't believe that for a second. The operative set here should be "runs with full powerup loadouts." The nature of the coin system forces certain players to grind with no powerups to earn coins to use on "real" runs. If those are included in this average, then it distorts it beyond any meaning. I suspect it's very rare for players using full loadouts that don't include worthless powerups like Runaway Notes, Shockwave, or (tragically, now) Flame Notes to get anything less than 5 stars on an average song. Even after they destroyed Flames, Gold Stars are still readily obtainable on most songs with Jack/Flame.

[hmxhenry]

Hey all. Thanks to everyone that posted, played, or created videos over the weekend. Having this kind of feedback is a huge help.

I've updated my reports with info from more recent posts, and should be able to meet with the rest of the Blitz team when they are all back in on Wednesday since our offices are closed tomorrow.

I've also added quick links to my posts in the OP so people don't have to dig for them. I've seen a few people ask about official responses or say that they haven't seen specific questions addressed, so hopefully this will make that info easier to find. Additionally, I've changed the title of the thread to make the specific subject more apparent to more casual posters scanning the forums.

Thanks again for your feedback and for your patience. I'll update when I have additional info or any questions that we could pass along to the community.

[Bront20]

I don't believe that for a second.

I didn't believe it either till Pope and Henry both insisted it was the case, and they have more data than I do.

I did read your other points, I'm just digesting them.

As far as the risk/reward/skill for blast notes, it's all or nothing with them. You miss a blast note, it's over, done, and you move on, but you don't always get a clear warning about them, and sometimes you break Blitz mode, ignore OD, or other things in order to hit one. Sure, it's easier to only have to worry about 1 note than 10+, but it still requires skill and timing (as well as knowing when it's NOT worth going for). They also can come up in Solos or other less optimal sections where Flame Note is still useful.

I'm not saying it's rocket surgery, but expounding on the high skill of Flame/Jackpot makes it sound like other players don't have skill, or that Jack/Flame mastery is and always should be the penultimate combo, and everyone else is using the kid gloves. I think in HMX's vision of the game, that shouldn't be the case, and the idea is to open up the game to more combos in more instances being viable, and the skill is in picking the right upgrades and maximizing them vs mastering a single skill set.

As far as a risk reward ratio, Jack/Flame could easily double or triple other combinations regularly, and band/flame could top that by a significant amount on some songs. Sure, it's good to reward skill, but is 200% better scores really a good gap? Particularly when there is skill in playing the other powerups.

Edit: Ninja'd by Henry. You're awesome, thanks for that.

[Thisnameislame]

Well that explains why all my scores yesterday were terrible. Anyway I think all the points I would have made have already been brought up. I think buffing Blitz Mode and, if possible, limiting making it so after a certain number of flame notes they only spawn on one lane and then stop spawning altogether would be good fixes (and maybe start out spawning on one lane on songs with 3 or fewer tracks). Having flame notes worth less than regular notes on long songs is absolutely not the way to go. Actually I'd say buff Blitz Mode AND ending bonuses would be good because more reward for not breaking combo and raising multipliers is probably the best way to counter exploits that involve ignoring those core mechanics.

[Bront20]

Yeah, a flame note "limit" of some kind might be a better fix than a total score nerf. It wouldn't hurt most of the top scores, maybe reign them in a bit, and it would address the dual lane playing game a bit. After you hit, say, 20 flame notes, they stop spawning till the next initial flame note spark (Make it hit, not number that spawn). Still leaves the skill and risk/reward, doesn't nerf it for folks who aren't as skilled, and limits "abuse".

[MaximusDM]

I believe the original topic name was more appropriate.

Yeah, a flame note "limit" of some kind might be a better fix than a total score nerf. It wouldn't hurt most of the top scores, maybe reign them in a bit, and it would address the dual lane playing game a bit. After you hit, say, 20 flame notes, they stop spawning till the next initial flame note spark (Make it hit, not number that spawn). Still leaves the skill and risk/reward, doesn't nerf it for folks who aren't as skilled, and limits "abuse".

Nothing will hurt the top scores besides a leaderboard wipe. I'm assuming you mean ACHIEVING those scores post nerf. If that's what you meant, I don't know how you can claim that when those top scores are juggling flames far beyond 20 notes.

I'll say this again, you can't negatively reduce the point value, mechanics, the engine or the power-up without leaving leaderboards with unobtainable scores.

[Bront20]

Nothing will hurt the top scores besides a leaderboard wipe. I'm assuming you mean ACHIEVING those scores post nerf. If that's what you meant, I don't know how you can claim that when those top scores are juggling flames far beyond 20 notes.

I'll say this again, you can't negatively reduce the point value, mechanics, the engine or the power-up without leaving leaderboards with unobtainable scores.

First you balance the upgrades, then you figure out the net point values. A scoreboard wipe may be what's needed.

I'm just brainstorming here.

[zage1337]

If a scoreboard wipe actually happens I'll probably play RB Blitz as much as I play RB3...very very rarely. There is no way I'm going to grind for scores ever again if the wipe actually happens.