What Happened to Flame Notes In Rockband Blitz?????

[zage1337]

Every single song in the game is still gold starrable. I GS'd Child in Time(pretty big margin too), got 720k on Shout, GS'd Five Magics, a bunch of hard chaotrope songs and I know others got the other seemingly impossible songs gs'd so no song has an unobtainable GS. All After the Flame Notes nerf. You might just have be a little more creative now.

Still Flames should return to their original value. That is 1,500 points. It would be fine if it was like 1,000 points each but it has to do with a few unobtainable scores. Mostly the 800k buddy holly band/flame scores type. Other scores would require more skill output with jack/flame but it would still be obtainable so a possible nerf can actually happen. If you were going to nerf Flame Notes other powerups should get increment boosts to help close the gap between impossible and hard to obtain scores. 1st place scores should be hard to obtain, after all they are the top scores in the world. I could live with a few outrageous band/flame scores that can never be topped. I already ignore 1-2 lane song scores entirely and don't really pay attention to 3 lane song scores that much.

Anyways I just want to thank HMXHenry for actually being able to recognize the issues and engaging with the community, and trying to do something about it. So thank you for still giving great support. The last thing I want to happen though is if the leaderboards actually get reset. Even with the change many songs still have obtainable scores even without flame notes and because the game is server side you can always add changes to the game to keep it going or change possible mistakes. If you reset the leaderboards it's gone for good and the hardcore community who cares enough about them will probably not continue going for scores.

[HeyRiles]

I'm beginning to suspect Flame Notes will get their old point values back after the tournament season is over. I think I remember reading somewhere that the tournaments will only run through February or March

[JCirri]

1) A nerf of any amount brings into question the issue of score integrity, and I don't believe the pros outweigh the cons at this point. Going forward I would prefer if only severely underused power-ups were buffed to the point that they at least cross player's minds for certain song types. This was already the case for blast notes, road rage and to some extent, bottle rocket. I wouldn't mind slight buffs to those, but shockwave and runaway notes need attention the most.

Allow me to allay some worries right off the bat. We’re only tweaking these things in the positive. That is, your favorite power-up is not being maimed or gimped in any way. You just may start to see a little more competition for your top leaderboard spots from some folks, so keep a look out!

I understand needs change over time, but I truly believe that was and still is the best approach to keeping a solid and growing foundation far into the future.

To more directly answer the question though, if I completely ignored the leaderboards and had to choose a fixed amount for flames without changing anything else, my easiest reference point for determining balance would be blast notes. Blast notes typically spawn 5 times more frequently and I'd say award about 2000 points on average (i.e. when the pop-up on screen says "1000" on both sides), so balancing comes down to how many flames you think can be juggled per chain and dividing that number into 10000 (5 times 2000). If the answer is about 7, then 1500 was a perfectly reasonable amount. If you want to say 10 (which I believe is too far beyond expectation) then 1000 is reasonable.

Of course flames can contribute to jackpot and blast bonus does not. This in itself is a possible balance issue, but balancing the power-up in relation to a particular synergy has the result of unbalancing every other combination that involves flames. Furthermore, the bigger problem is that there's no cap, so while it's extremely unlikely that even fairly talented players could average 7 or more flames per chain, there are some who've built the skill the manage more, even while under jackpot. If a software patch were considered, I agree with the idea of diminishing returns as a far better solution to the problem. But again, changing the underlying foundation after millions of scores have been logged is not my preference.

2) I really dislike the idea of having apples and oranges compared on the leaderboards, regardless if top scores are theoretically attainable. It would be a confusing experience even trying to compare personal bests with wildly different performances yielding similar results depending on the timeframe. I'd have a tough time regaining interest with a reset, but kept as is there's very little chance I'd return to the game except perhaps testing out the tournaments. Adding up my # plays logged on RB World I have over 2000 song plays, including 63 plays of child in time (nearly 11 hours alone) and several cross-platform 1sts (using both jackpot/flame and jackpot/blast). I'd still prefer a leaderboard wipe if a nerf is unfortunately deemed necessary, but only because it's the lesser of two evils.

3) I prefer using flames with jackpot for reasons mentioned in my previous post. I've attempted bandmate/flame and don't enjoy it as much. I still diverge to other power-up combinations for fast-tempo and dense songs with a lot of OD or unisons to pickup. I'd say as of lately I use flames about 90% of the time. However, for the first half of my playing hours I'd say it was reversed to about 10% of the time when I much preferred blast notes.

4) 10. Leaderboards are one of the most valuable assets for replayability and longevity of a game. Whether your goal is top 1000, top 100, top 10, or 1st place it's the primary driving force that motivates replaying a song after having achieved gold stars. Score wars are great as well, but I've personally only had fun with them the first several weeks of the game before having them expire as playing schedules don't align. I now play for the leaderboards and was looking forward to climbing the overall score leaderboard as I played through the rest of the 1000+ unplayed songs in my library. Time will tell if I continue to pursue that goal or not.

[AJayN85]

1) What do you think Flame notes should be worth? It seems that most posters in this thread aren't opposed to the suggestion that Flame notes were previously over powered... but where do you see the balance between "over powered" and "under powered"?

If you don't want to wipe the leaderboards but will buff everything else accordingly: original value, 1500.
If you can live with wiping the leaderboards but want to stick with nerfing as the solution: Uhhh, keep upping the value by 200 points until it "feels" right? You and I both know that the optimal value will probably fall within a range that "feels" comfortable.

2) If the Flame note values remain as is would you rather see the leaderboards reset or see them remain as is?

See above. It seems a leaderboard wipe would make a lot of people in and out of this thread angry, so I would favor preserving existing scores.

3) How often do you use Flame notes when playing Blitz? Never, sometimes, all the time?

Sometimes, but leaning toward never. Jack/Flame always felt too risky for me, so I trended toward Road Rage or Bottle Rockets and Blast Notes.

4) How important are top leaderboard scores to you on a scale of 1 to 10, 1 being "never think about them" and 10 being "they consume my every waking moment"?

8.5. As with all other Rock Band games, leaderboards are pretty much the only reason why I play (aside from fun, of course!). Score tracking is such a powerful motivator for all types of players, whether they realize it or not.

Summary:
It looks like to avoid making many people mad, you'll have to keep the leaderboards, restore the original flame note values, and buff everything else accordingly.

[cowboys282]

1) What do you think Flame notes should be worth? It seems that most posters in this thread aren't opposed to the suggestion that Flame notes were previously over powered... but where do you see the balance between "over powered" and "under powered"?

After watching the Youtube video showing how to exploit Bandmate and Flame I understand why something had to be done. It was an exploit not intended. The problem is that I sued Flame notes with Jackpot as the game intended. By nerfing the flame notes it made my loadout useless. If Flamenotes are say brought back up to 750 the exploit could still be used to achieve high scores. However I would never be able to equal or pass my previous scores using a legitimate load out of Jackpot/Flame.

1500 was the right number for Flame notes. The problem with the game fundamentally is the exploit. To decrease the value of Flame notes ruins the whole spirit of the game. I agree that something needs to be done with Bandmate/Flame. The right answer is fixing how the Flame notes spawn which would require a patch. My guess is that Harmonix has no plans to release a patch. So I do not have a good solution. However having Flames at 1500 is better for the game than having them be 350.

2) If the Flame note values remain as is would you rather see the leaderboards reset or see them remain as is?

Leaderboards are worthless as they are now. I did spend plenty of time getting to the top on many songs. If leaderboards were reset I do not see myself taking the time to play all those songs again. I would also fear of another reset down the road so I couldn't justify the time or effort to do it all over again. The population of the game has also decreased so the challenge of being on the leaderboard would not be the same.

If there were a way to remove some scores obviously attained through the exploit I would be for that. Call of Duty does this often. It's quite obvious to tell who used the exploit.

3) How often do you use Flame notes when playing Blitz? Never, sometimes, all the time?

After using all the combinations since the game came out I settled with using Flame notes almost exclusively with Jackpot. Although it was not always the best combo to use for a song I still used this. I felt it the most challenging combination and made the game fun for me. I was able to beat many peoples scores who used the Bandmate/Flame exploit.

4) How important are top leaderboard scores to you on a scale of 1 to 10, 1 being "never think about them" and 10 being "they consume my every waking moment"?

The leaderboards are about a 7 to me. As far as my life goers they mean very little. But when I am on Xbox and playing Rock Band they are the only reason I play. I do not use Facebook for Rock Band World and I never will. The tournaments are a great idea but since I do not use Rock Band World I will not be part of them. I have all my friends scores beaten and they rarely play. Not worth playing score duels. So the only reason I play is to top my own high scores and continue to rank up the leaderboards.

Some songs were easier to rank up on than others. And of course there are now certain scores that I can never beat because of the Bandmate/Flame exploit. I do wonder how my scores would stack up against those same people if the exploit was gone from the leaderboards. But I am in no mood to start from scratch if they were reset. And with my favorite combo being useless whats the point.

Unless Harmonix decides the patch the exploit no matter what you do the game will be broken. But I understand you set this game up so that you could tweak Power ups from your end without having to patch the game.

In summary the exploit stinks but the game was more fun for me how it was than what it has become.

[firedoom666]

1) I don't really know...

2) I think the leaderboards need to be reset there are too many unbeatable scores out there

3) almost all the time.... I tried the other powerups a few times but Flame Notes are what suits me best

4) I would give it like a 6... I don't go out of my way to get to the top... but if I happen to see myself getting in the top 10 I do brag about it to my brother

[Pankrazzo]

Wiping all leaderboards would be the crappiest solution possible, why would you even consider to punish thousands of Blitz players for the exploits of maybe a few dozen players?

Blitz isn't that popular to begin with, by alienating a chunk of its established user base (myself included), I definitely could see it mark the beginning of its end. Having to deal with the 1000 gold stars cap is crappy enough, if I lose all my scores I'll be done with this game.

Upgrade all power-ups to balance them out, and the highscore hunt may continue without wiping the results of four months of Blitz gaming of thousands of people.

[clarknova]

1) What do you think Flame notes should be worth?

2) If the Flame note values remain as is would you rather see the leaderboards reset or see them remain as is?

3) How often do you use Flame notes when playing Blitz?

4) How important are top leaderboard scores to you on a scale of 1 to 10?

1. Nerfed score is fine with me.
2. Leaderboards reset all the way.
3. Rarely.
4. 1.

[fcmlefty]

I think the best bet is to raise the values of the other power ups. Lets all start to chase the leaderboards in a buffed up way.

To me, if you up the values of all of them, it will be kind of like baseball and football records that get broken. Think of the current scores as being the equivalent of the old 14 game NFL schedule or the old 154 game baseball schedule. The new buffed up values will be equilalent the 16 game or 162 game schedule, and lets watch the records fall.

[Epsilon82]

To expand a little bit in response to hmxhenry's question regarding the balance between "underpowered" and "overpowered" with regard to Flame notes, it's important to remember that the issue of balance cannot accurately be assessed strictly with regard to point potentials. The mechanics of using the powerups themselves are also not in balance, so point potential shouldn't be either.

Let me give an example of what I mean. Let's take the difference between Jackpot and Point Doubler as an example, because it most obviously demonstrates this principle within the core design of the powerups. These are both quite similar powerups in terms of usage; you build up some overdrive, and you press a button to activate it and the duration lasts until your overdrive drains. But the two powerups are obviously not the same because of the requirements and payouts involved. Point Doubler requires basically nothing of you. You hit notes as you always would, and while the powerup is active you will get twice as many points as normal. Jackpot, however, banks the points and then wipes them out entirely if you make a single mistake, whether it be an overhit or a missed note. So it is obviously more difficult to use effectively; in exchange for that difficulty, you are rewarded with triple the normal points for your performance.

So basically, it makes no sense whatsoever for the effective use of 2X to be "balanced" in any sense with the average use of Jackpot. By their very core design and definition, they are imbalanced. That's the entire point of having these distinct separate powerups. So by the very design of the powerups themselves, there is not nor should there be a balance between 2X and Jackpot. If Jackpot didn't make it possible to score significantly higher than 2X, there would be absolutely no point to Jackpot's existence at all.

It's not as immediately obvious, but the same logic applies to all kinds of powerups in the game, including (and more on point to the current situation) Flame Notes and Blast Notes. Again, they have similarities in that they are randomly appearing purple notes on the track. But the difficulty of using them effectively (leaving aside the Bandmate/Flame exploit for the time being) is not remotely the same, for multiple reasons.

The number of Flame Notes you can hit is dictated by hitting the first one and then keeping the chain spreading by hitting others in rapid succession. If you miss the first note or fail to keep the chain moving shortly afterward, it is a massive blow to your potential score. However, Blast Notes are all placed in a predetermined though randomized position. All you have to do is chase them down and hit as many as you can. If you miss one, it's not a huge deal. It doesn't affect any future potential Blast Notes whatsoever. So again, in terms of the difficulty of using the respective powerups effectively, Flame Notes and Blast Notes are inherently unbalanced. Therefore, it's perfectly logical for those who can effectively use Flame Notes on a given song to expect a greater scoring potential than those using Blast Notes; again, otherwise, there would be no reason to ever use Flame Notes at all. Which incidentally, is the present situation.

The upshot here is that the powerup system in the game was designed to be inherently imbalanced, which makes perfect sense: it allows players of various skill levels to achieve good scores to the best of their capabilities, which allows them to enjoy competing with friends or others of similar skill levels via Score Wars, etc. But if the intention from the beginning to make a wide variety of powerup loadouts have the potential to attain the highest score on a wide variety of different scores, then the powerup designs themselves are completely contradictory to that purpose. The only way to achieve something like that would be to make every powerup identical in terms of the usage scenarios (i.e., they're all "fire and forget" like Road Rage/Bottle Rockets) that differ only in the effects. The instant you start changing the parameters of the actual usage, the risk/reward differences involved DEMAND appropriate scoring imbalances.

As a final point: I'd like to strenuously caution against any kind of compromise in this situation. In situations like this it is extremely tempting to try to "split the difference." But the specifics of this quandary do not lend themselves well to this kind of thinking. In a strange sense, Harmonix's instincts were correct in the sense that in order to fully neutralize the Bandmate/Flame exploit with their only recourse being to adjust powerup point payouts, they had to nerf Flame values to this degree.

But given their stated intention, which evidently was to prevent players using the exploit to dominate Tournaments, any sort of meaningful compromise on Flame values will not achieve that goal. If Flame notes are raised to a point where they're back to being useful at all, the exploit users will still be able to dominate the Tournaments. On top of that, the leaderboards will still be utterly meaningless and would have to be reset, which would alienate a lot of players.

If Flame notes are not raised at all, then Tournaments will be dominated by players forced into using a powerup that has nothing to do with interacting with the music, and requires even more twitch skill than any other. It's not going to "balance" anything in terms of enabling a larger number of players to compete. It's simply going to destroy a perfectly valid powerup, reducing the number of feasible loadouts to a tremendous degree, and making the game far less enjoyable and interesting as a result. And the leaderboards will also still be utterly meaningless.

Assuming it's not practical for you to patch the game to find some other engine-based way to stop the exploit, your choices are basically limited to two things, the first of which was already done: kill off Flame notes entirely and reset the leaderboards, making Pinball/Sync the only viable high-scoring combo that will dominate Tournaments, or just leave well enough alone, revert Flames to their original value and still have some variety in the game and maintain the integrity of the leaderboards and the fruits of all of the hours thousands of players have already invested, and reduce the abuse of the exploit by simply using 5-lane songs for Tournaments. I think it should be obvious that the second course is preferable.