No RB on PS4?

[Varient]

Don't you realise that that is harder than changing discs for TB:RB?

Actually it's easier than it sounds. Get an AV selector from Radio Shack or wherever. Hook up your systems to the switcher, then hook the switcher up to the TV. From now on just push one button to switch consoles. Some even have controllers for the especially lazy. Either way, it's the sane alternative to messing with wires every time you want to switch systems.

I really don't get why so many companies lately are against things like backwards compatibility and used games. You'd think that being able to buy and play games from previous consoles would increase console loyalty and reduce fear of upgrading. If they ever do end up remastering or re-releasing a game people will still buy the new version for many reasons (this is why GoG is in business), if the game is never rereleased then it's no loss to the company. Used games themselves are very useful for introducing players to new games and encouraging them to try things they otherwise wouldn't have tried (ex: "If I don't like it, I'll turn it back in for store credit and buy another new game").

I understand controllers not being backwards compatible, especially as new features are added to the games. New features can mean new buttons! But choosing not to make it so it can read older software? Not the best choice, IMHO.

I really don't get what developers are thinking this gen. Even if they are thinking "moneymoneymoney" then why are they doing things that discourage us from being loyal buyers? All the proprietary to the system crap makes me think of the late 80's in a bad way. I'm starting to wonder if the doomsayers talking about a 201# game crash have some ground here....

[lvmathemagician]

More desk jobs that require degrees that not all people can obtain. And getting a degree costs money that not all people have.

Technology is most definitely a double edged sword. Great for the economy and business, terrible for the lower/middle class as far as job opportunities are concerned. If we continue on this road, manual labor will become almost defunct. Less and less jobs requiring manual labor is just going to continue to hurt the lower/middle classes.

Good luck making a living without some sort of degree, it's extremely difficult and that's in large part due to technology taking over jobs that once many people used to have to work for.

Why pay a person 50k a year when you can have a machine or computer do that same persons job twice as efficient and for practically no cost? I don't see the point in that and neither do many companies in America.

I'm sorry, but you're wrong. There are many people doing just fine without a degree. Don't be fooled by the people telling you that you have to have a degree to succeed. Many of the people telling you this are only trying to seperate you from your money.

[HairyMan]

Actually it's easier than it sounds. Get an AV selector from Radio Shack or wherever. Hook up your systems to the switcher, then hook the switcher up to the TV. From now on just push one button to switch consoles. Some even have controllers for the especially lazy. Either way, it's the sane alternative to messing with wires every time you want to switch systems.

I really don't get why so many companies lately are against things like backwards compatibility and used games. You'd think that being able to buy and play games from previous consoles would increase console loyalty and reduce fear of upgrading. If they ever do end up remastering or re-releasing a game people will still buy the new version for many reasons (this is why GoG is in business), if the game is never rereleased then it's no loss to the company. Used games themselves are very useful for introducing players to new games and encouraging them to try things they otherwise wouldn't have tried (ex: "If I don't like it, I'll turn it back in for store credit and buy another new game").

I understand controllers not being backwards compatible, especially as new features are added to the games. New features can mean new buttons! But choosing not to make it so it can read older software? Not the best choice, IMHO.

I really don't get what developers are thinking this gen. Even if they are thinking "moneymoneymoney" then why are they doing things that discourage us from being loyal buyers? All the proprietary to the system crap makes me think of the late 80's in a bad way. I'm starting to wonder if the doomsayers talking about a 201# game crash have some ground here....

It's all about what's a sustainable business model, and what is not. Backwards compatibility is not as simple as just adding in a few lines of code and having it magically work. There are only two ways to allow a console to be natively backwards compatible. One is via hardware which would require that all of the special processors in the previous console be included on the new console's board. The other one is through emulation of the old console's hardware via software run on the new console.

For the hardware solution, the company would have to basically merge the previous console with the new one, thus increasing the cost of production a great deal, and also increasing the power consumption of the system. This also brings in more processors on the main board which increases the likelihood of a processor not working right and thusly causing hardware failure.

For the software solution, you would need an INSANELY powerful processor to emulate the full functionality of all the processors on the older system. Generally speaking, a system needs to have about 10 times the processing power of the system it is emulating in order to properly function. The upcoming systems, while definitely having more processing power than the current generation, is nowhere near 10x as powerful. In addition, it has a vastly different CPU architecture so emulation is fully out of the question.

For the PS4 side of things, it appears as if Sony is going to try to use their streaming cloud service (Gaikai) to do this where the PS3/2/1 games are run on their streaming server.

If it was possible for the console manufacturers to have allowed the next gen to be BC with the current gen, while not greatly increasing costs, I'm sure they would have done it. But the costs associated with including the hardware of the current generation into that of the next gen systems is just too much.

Just think about it. If the upcoming systems without BC are going to cost $450-$500, to include all of the internal hardware of the current generation would up that cost another $100 or perhaps even more. We know that Sony got hit bad at the launch of the PS3 with the insanely high cost of that console at launch. That was back when the economy wasn't as horrific as it is now. There is no way that Sony could sell the PS4 for $600 or more at this time, and they also can't afford to sell the system at a loss like they did with the PS3.

The new generation of consoles are just too structurally different than the current generation. If you have the time, heh, earlier on this thread I wrote a novella about the concept of software emulation and why it just isn't able to be done on the next-gen systems.

[Musashi]

to include all of the internal hardware of the current generation would up that cost another $100 or perhaps even more.

Nope.
http://dlb-network.com/2010/01/how-m...to-make-a-ps3/

A Cell CPU, which really is all that the PS4 would need to play PS3 games cost $38 to produce 3 years ago, so it's almost certainly less than that today. Sony should design the PS4 with a spot for an add-in card, which they could sell profitably for $50.

BC with PS1 games on the PS2 worked by having a PS1 CPU in the PS2; PS1 games could make use of the GPU, Sound Card, and RAM of the PS2 with minimal emulation.

[HairyMan]

The PS1 and PS2 GPUs were pretty similar to each other. As a result, the processors were able to use the same GPU without any real hit in performance.

The PS3 uses an nVidia based GPU separate from the Cell processor itself. In the PS4, the GPU is on the same die as the CPU, and is based off of architecture designed by AMD. So we again get into the architecture differences making things quite difficult. Therefore, Sony would need to include the CPU and the GPU from the PS3 on the PS4. The combined cost for Sony for those two processors would be around $80, so to make any profit on that, the cost to the consumer would be around $100 if not more.

[Alternity]

A big city would have 15-20 music stores employing 20 or so each.

I'm in a big city, and I can tell you that there is WAY MORE than 15-20 music stores.

[Bront20]

so ... considering all this doom and gloom .. what is the BEST way for me to backup my ps3/dlc library? If my ps3/hd goes belly up and I have to buy a new ps3 or slap in a new drive .. can all of my dlc be backed up somehow for future transfer onto new hardware?

thanks ...

As long as it's linked to your account, you can redownload it to any authenticated PS3 (one in which you allow your DLC to work on). You can also backup to a USB HD, which can restore to the same physical PS3.

[Bront20]

To be fair, they actually only said PS2 and PS3 backwards compatability for discs. I don't think they eliminated the PS1, which was so close to a PC that PC emulators for PS1 games became pretty common immediately.

While I like the idea of an add in card, the issue is that you're basically adding in a CPU (GPU shouldn't be an issue, it's pretty standardized, would just require a special driver), which as you well know heats up, so it can't just be an expansion card, it would need it's own cooling system and ability to get enough power to be supported. Now, making a $100 premium PS4 version with backwards compatibility would be much better from a true manufacturing standpoint, but that requires extra manufacturing, as well as now a bunch of other backwards compatible things.

I think it was a poor move, but it may depend on where the price of the PS3 goes, and how long they keep it up. Beyond that, once old games are streaming, why not allow for PSN digital game purchases to roll over? Promote loyalty. Even if you have to spend money to enable it.

[jibjqrkl]

As long as it's linked to your account, you can redownload it to any authenticated PS3 (one in which you allow your DLC to work on).

for as long as PSN stays up. let's not forget that

[Bront20]

for as long as PSN stays up. let's not forget that

True, but if it goes down, you're hosed eventually no matter what. PS2 was around for a good long while into the PS3, so I don't see that model changing with the PS4.